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Myssfitz
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003
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Location: In the pasture

Flynn wrote:

Any chance of setting up a forum somewhere else anyone?


I'm setting one up at Delphi. We can make it private, so no one else can get in and the format is pretty easy. Or we can always do Yahoo, which is free, but the format is a little hard to understand. The one at Yahoo (for now) is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orbitalcolony
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:29 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

aiesha_anonymous wrote:

My other question is how far behind the curtain we should attempt to go. For example, should we now transfer discussion to somewhere secret and try to go TINAG? Or, are we interested in players feedback on how effectively we worked as a team, developed and realised our idea into the ARG, etc.? If the latter, we could continue here (although space might v. quickly become an issue) or we could release our 'developmental stage' to the world post-game, for that kind of retrospective feedback.

Please tell me if I'm making this all way too complicated, as I have a tendency to do that!

Also, I'm away for a couple of days so please don't start without me!! (I'll be back next week.)

Excited! Frightened! Exhilarated!

aiesha Very Happy


When it was mentioned in the Meta thread, we want to keep the curtain open for feedback during the process so that even the lurkers out there might have something to input, including some of the Usual Suspects from previous games. We are not trying to hide the PM or any of the Behind the Scenes work. No TINAG for this time around. I'd like imediate feedback while still hammering things out while in the process and not later, after the mistakes are set in stone.

There are a couple of reasons I was interested in using an orbital station, 1.) It may seem like an unknow environment but I have played around with the though project regarding a stable long term eco system for water and air recycling, others in our community have experience with breaking ground building materials. This is a chance to put our real world knowledge into use, and maybe spark some ideas for future ARGs.
2.) I wanted something that would not be locked into a specific time zone, we have at least a dozen or more members that come from outside the US and Canada. The UK, Asia, Oceana... because life doesn't always happen at convienent times, and maybe if we had more opportunity for these people to be active on their own schedule, we could not just get them more involved but draw more people into the community from their time zones.

Slyfox, we can state the time and background as anything we'd like, even a what if current situation (i.e. what if in the mid 1970's we had developed more alternate fuels instead of relying on oil, or even what if a orbital colony was set up in secret, but something has happened to make the people on the station want to break a long held silence)

Flynn, from what I have seen we have 4 or 5 in Oz/NZ, Grumpyboy in Kong Kong, One (or more) in South America (Brazil or Argentina, I can't remeber which), and besides yourself in the UK, we also have Alasio, Dylan, William, and a few more I think, Zeitgeist in ... Sweden? plus ZtinKyFinGaZ in Denmark. We should well be able to have people to interact together in those time zones, even if we only have one or two people on the teams.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:38 am
Last edited by MageSteff on Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Myssfitz
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003
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Location: In the pasture

Forum for PM's

Steff,

I agree, but don't we need a place for the groups to post too once we start thinking of puzzles and everything? We don't want any of that info to be public. That kind of defeats the purpose for others who aren't apart of the PM part to solve things. I thought this was our training ground to see how we would do.

What do you think?

Urs

The Delphi one is set up too. http://forums.delphiforums.com/orbitalcolony
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:46 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Re: Forum for PM's

Myssfitz wrote:
Steff,

I agree, but don't we need a place for the groups to post too once we start thinking of puzzles and everything? We don't want any of that info to be public. That kind of defeats the purpose for others who aren't apart of the PM part to solve things. I thought this was our training ground to see how we would do.

What do you think?

Urs

The Delphi one is set up too. http://forums.delphiforums.com/orbitalcolony


Ursulla, you are right there are some aspects of this we don't want them to see, I just want the curtain to be open enough that someone who has been through similar experiences can let us know what things to watch out for that has caused problems in the past. Sure storylines and puzzles should be kept in a black box, but I also would like people to be able to see a bit of progress too... maybe use the Delphi forum to discuss storyline and puzzles and post updates here (i.e. today we finished two websites and layed out the story arc) .

Varin, Slyfox & Flynn, what do you guys think?
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:56 am
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
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Makes sense,

A general forum here or elsewhere for discussion of the game. Treat this as if it were infront of the curtain for people who wish to play but not PM. Don't start this until the ARG is up and running.

Another forum for behind the curtain discussion with a BIG disclaimer that posts here should not make there way onto the general forum. This forum should not be used for specific problem solving but as feedback area. These two will need alot of moderating if they are to work well together.

Finally, closed forums for each team of PMs to brain storm etc.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:10 am
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

Magesteff wrote:
Varin, Slyfox & Flynn, what do you guys think?

Slyfox wrote:
Makes sense,

A general forum here or elsewhere for discussion of the game. Treat this as if it were infront of the curtain for people who wish to play but not PM. Don't start this until the ARG is up and running.

Another forum for behind the curtain discussion with a BIG disclaimer that posts here should not make there way onto the general forum. This forum should not be used for specific problem solving but as feedback area. These two will need alot of moderating if they are to work well together.

Finally, closed forums for each team of PMs to brain storm etc.


That sounds just about right for me - keeps the curtain nice & open, without spoiling the story & puzzles for the players.

Edited for me being dumb Wink

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:49 am
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Slyfox
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Magesteff,

Quote:
Slyfox, we can state the time and background as anything we'd like, even a what if current situation (i.e. what if in the mid 1970's we had developed more alternate fuels instead of relying on oil, or even what if a orbital colony was set up in secret, but something has happened to make the people on the station want to break a long held silence)


This is fine, even a nice idea, but the further we move away from what is fact the more background work that needs to be done to prep the players and the greater the chances of plot holes appearing. If we were to dispose of an oil based economy then what of, the middle east, agro-chemicals, global warming, The Exxon Valdez and Texan Oilmen politicians?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:11 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

aiesha_anonymous wrote:

My other question is how far behind the curtain we should attempt to go. For example, should we now transfer discussion to somewhere secret and try to go TINAG?


A veteren PM has kindly offered the use of a private bulletin board (a phpbb like this one) to discuss puzzles and plot twists and such. Would that work for us?

Thanks Wink
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:11 pm
Last edited by Varin on Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Varin
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Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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Location: South of where I used to be

Issues

SOrry I haven't posted much here (been crazy busy the past couple of days in the Mysterious Stranger world) Here's some issues that have come up...

There has been some concern from some that this is a silly undertaking and that it will be a huge disaster, turning people away from PM'ing with a bad taste in their mouths.

My original idea for this was a very low key learning experience. I figured it would be a good way for us to get a taste of what it was like to be a PM without putting our reputations on the line and without having to commit 6 months of our lives. Everyone knows that this is only practice, so if we majorly screw up we chalk it up to being newbies and laugh. If it turns out great, that's awesome and we're lucky! That said here's some issues I think we should tackle...

1. Would it be a good idea to enlist some veterans as mentors? I had thought of this earlier, but I guess never posted it. Maybe each team could have a mentor to ask questions and advice to? Or do we want to do this on our own? On the one hand I kind of like doing it on our own so that we can learn from our mistakes. But on the other hand, I'd like this to be at least somewhat enjoyable for those playing along by minimizing screw ups. Wink

2. How long do we want each of the parts to run? I think short is good. What do you guys think? I guess this sort of depends on how many teams (we have 16 signups now) and the theme we pick. If we want this to be just a taste of PM'ing I'd say we don't want it to be too long for each team.

Great start on theme ideas by the way. So have we decided if we are going to go with one story arc that the teams follow (part I, part II, etc.) or is each team going to have a stand alone story with a common theme? I think there are pitfalls and benefits to each.

Stand alone stories will allow for a bit more creativity and wiggle room, but time will be a bit more limited because you have to fit the beginning, middle and end into just your teams time frame.

An umbrella story arc allows us to tell the story over a longer period of time so we can get to the juicy details. This way we also have to be on our toes and pay attention to what the previous team is doing. This might be a good exercise. The pitfall for this is that we're losing some creative control. If Team A kills off half the population from a deadly virus, Team B will have to deal with the dead bodies. (ick, I can't believe I just used that as an example)

Input?
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"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:34 pm
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
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Varin,

I suggest we;

Keep it simple.

Be up front with players and PMs that This Is A Game (TIAG) and a learning/teaching exercise so they should get off their high horses about curtains on this one.

Possibly have 1 or 2 experienced PMs to control the ARC, veto anything which will torpedo the game and oversee all the separate groups and ensure that everyone is heading in the same direction.

Remember were here to have fun.
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:52 pm
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Flynn
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Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Varin wrote:
1. Would it be a good idea to enlist some veterans as mentors? I had thought of this earlier, but I guess never posted it. Maybe each team could have a mentor to ask questions and advice to? Or do we want to do this on our own? On the one hand I kind of like doing it on our own so that we can learn from our mistakes. But on the other hand, I'd like this to be at least somewhat enjoyable for those playing along by minimizing screw ups.

2. How long do we want each of the parts to run? I think short is good. What do you guys think? I guess this sort of depends on how many teams (we have 16 signups now) and the theme we pick. If we want this to be just a taste of PM'ing I'd say we don't want it to be too long for each team.


1. I'd say this is a good idea, if there's anyone willing to keep us in line Wink Maybe just someone to rein in any runaway enthusiasm, and point out anything really dumb that we might start thinking about. Judging from what's been said so far in this thread, I think the biggest danger is that we try to run before we can walk and end up in way over our heads. It's a hell of a way to learn, but I'd rather go slow and steady to start with Smile

2. I was just thinking about this myself. My vote is for short - maybe a couple of weeks max per part. Remember that MU "only" ran for about 6-8 weeks, and that was a full blown game with all the effort that requires on the part of the PM's. Even with just a couple of weeks/episode and a week of "tweaking time" between them, with 3 teams (?) that still gives us over 2 months of game...

The general feeling as regards story seems to be to go for an overall story arc - maybe we need an agreement between the teams as regards killing/blowing up/otherwise massively changing any major characters or locations. I totally agree about keeping this fairly low key, and not losing sight of the fact that this is practice. If we screw up, well, I'll nip down to the fishmongers and buy us a boatload of trout Very Happy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:54 pm
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bill
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Two points I want to make.

First, being a PM requires a huge commitment of both time and financial resources. I've offered hosting to help offset one of the bigger expenses, but you guys will inevitably want to spend money on things like relevant domain names, swag, etc. Players will typically NOT contribute much of the overall budget. A few will donate more than their fair share but most will not contribute anything.

And the time commitment can not be overstated. It takes a lot of time to work out a story conducive to gameplay, develop content, figure out how to integrate puzzles into the story, develop credible characters, plan for interactive elements, redo the story, etc. etc. And this is all before you even launch. Once you go live, you have to manage those interactions, follow the player groups, adjust your content and puzzles, adjust your story, and manage websites, etc.

It really is time consuming and if you don't have a couple of people willing to do whatever it takes to keep things moving, progress falls off very quickly. Pareto's Principle definitely applies on both sides of the curtain.

With all that said, my second point would be to suggest setting a limit up front about how many websites you want, how much interaction you need and how many characters need to be fleshed out. Remember that the more you create, the more you will need to maintain once you go live. Scale the experiment to about half what you expect your resources to be. I promise it will grow to easily consume the rest if it gets close to going live.

I don't say this to discourage anyone from diving in, but when you volunteer, make sure you understand the commitment you are making. There will be a whole team out there counting on you to deliver what you commit to doing. Also, if at all possible, make sure there is overlap in skillsets. Having only one person with any specific skill is setting your team up for potential failure. Life happens and people have to deal with Real World issues. Be prepared for that.

One more parting thought. Before you divide up into groups, everyone should collaborate on the overall story. Once you have a general outline, then split the work up into parts and have a clear set of milestones that indicate when you are transitioning to the next team. You don't want to end up with a bunch of unusable content because the story took an unexpected twist.

And have fun!
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:10 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

wb wrote:

One more parting thought. Before you divide up into groups, everyone should collaborate on the overall story. Once you have a general outline, then split the work up into parts and have a clear set of milestones that indicate when you are transitioning to the next team. You don't want to end up with a bunch of unusable content because the story took an unexpected twist.

And have fun!


I think this is a great suggestion. This would get rid of some of the pitfalls of an overall story arc. We can all get together and work out the story line and then divide up. Thanks wb Smile
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"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:25 pm
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bagsbee
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Re: Issues

Varin wrote:
1. Would it be a good idea to enlist some veterans as mentors? I had thought of this earlier, but I guess never posted it. Maybe each team could have a mentor to ask questions and advice to? Or do we want to do this on our own? On the one hand I kind of like doing it on our own so that we can learn from our mistakes. But on the other hand, I'd like this to be at least somewhat enjoyable for those playing along by minimizing screw ups. Wink


I don't think having a dedicated mentor is necessary. I'd imagine if we have questions along the way (i.e., "In your experience, is it a bad idea to do XYZ?"), some former PMs would be willing to help...right Brooke? Wink

Varin wrote:
2. How long do we want each of the parts to run? I think short is good. What do you guys think? I guess this sort of depends on how many teams (we have 16 signups now) and the theme we pick. If we want this to be just a taste of PM'ing I'd say we don't want it to be too long for each team.


The shorter the better, I'd say. Remember, the longer the run time, the longer the prep time, which means the longer the breaks between parts.

Varin wrote:
Great start on theme ideas by the way. So have we decided if we are going to go with one story arc that the teams follow (part I, part II, etc.) or is each team going to have a stand alone story with a common theme? I think there are pitfalls and benefits to each.

Stand alone stories will allow for a bit more creativity and wiggle room, but time will be a bit more limited because you have to fit the beginning, middle and end into just your teams time frame.

An umbrella story arc allows us to tell the story over a longer period of time so we can get to the juicy details. This way we also have to be on our toes and pay attention to what the previous team is doing. This might be a good exercise. The pitfall for this is that we're losing some creative control. If Team A kills off half the population from a deadly virus, Team B will have to deal with the dead bodies. (ick, I can't believe I just used that as an example)


I have a hybrid suggestion, which I'll explain by way of analogy. There was a sketch comedy show on HBO called Mr. Show, where each of the sketches was different, but there was always a transition between the sketches, something to tie them together. We could use this same approach. For example:

- All the teams get together and agree on a starting point - 3 main characters, 4 sub-characters, 1 main plot, 2 subplots, 5 websites
- Team A states: By the end of our part, Sub-character 2 is dead, Main character 3 is in the hospital, Website xyz.com is down, sub-character 5 has been added
- Team B states: By the end of our part, Main character 3 is out of hospital but missing, Sub-characters 2 & 4 are plotting against Main character 1, Building A in subplot 2 is destroyed, etc, etc.

There would have to be some collaboration between the teams to nail down the transitions, but none of the teams know the details of the other parts. So, using the above example, Team C knows Main Character 3 is missing, but they don't know why. This provides enough structure for teams to do preliminary development, and since teams can have their own twists and turns, it'll stimulate the creative process and keep teams on their toes.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:38 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Varin wrote:
aiesha_anonymous wrote:

My other question is how far behind the curtain we should attempt to go. For example, should we now transfer discussion to somewhere secret and try to go TINAG?


A veteren PM has kindly offered the use of a private bulletin board (a phpbb like this one) to discuss puzzles and plot twists and such. Would that work for us?

Thanks Wink


Ursulla has started the Orbital_colony group over at Yahoo, members only. this or the other place would work.

Bill wrote:
... but you guys will inevitably want to spend money on things like relevant domain names, swag, etc. Players will typically NOT contribute much of the overall budget. A few will donate more than their fair share but most will not contribute anything.


Um... no, that wasn't what I was talking about. The point was to not buy domain names & such, but use free resources so that those of us on a limited budget can still put together something. We have numerous places to do that, Yahoo, Angelfire/Lycos, Geocities, etc. It should still be possible to get our content up and linked where it needs to be linked. This way, no one or two or 5 gets stuck financing what is basically "practice" and save those pennies for a place where the full curtain and atmosphere will be in effect.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:01 pm
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