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[imbri]

[Blue K]

[FLmutant]

[imbri]

[Rogi Ocnorb]

Just curious...
What classification would something like the uF "Movie Guessing Game" be given? Note that the scoring part was added on a whim and isn't really a factor in this question.

It has a ruleset, of sorts but is wholly open-ended and each winner gets to present their offering as they wish. Making it as difficult or easy as they like and adding clues (or not) along the way.

[konamouse]

[thebruce]

I think another perspective may be that a game is not linear - in that, there may or may not be a planned outcome, but the path to get there is dynamic.
- An FPS where you can't move or control the character but follow one path from beginning to end isn't a game, it's like reading a book. You can't do anything.
- A puzzle gives you a chance to choose your path to a predefined solution.
- An RPG allows you to choose the path your character takes, undertaking little 'mini games' along the way (goals, quests, etc).
- An interactive story ARG/CF is an entirely planned out story, but has minimal interaction where you have a choice on what to say and how to say it.
- C2BK has no winners or losers, but you can choose where to go and who to talk to.
- The movie guessing game is never ending but each 'mini game' involves someone deciding what picture to use, and people thinking about and choosing what to guess, where the 'winner' posts a new 'mini game'.
- Cathy's Book allowed you to feel as though you were interacting with the story by being given the choice to explore more of the 'world' outside the novel itself.
- I would even call a choose your own adventure novel a form of 'game'.

heck, some might even consider designing a website a game though that's pushing it, hehe. I think we're attempting to stay within the realm of general 'entertainment' here. In which case, while I really like kona's definition:
A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome.

I'd add...
A game is a system in which those involved have a dynamic role in the process of traversing from its beginning to its intended goal (as opposed to outcome), whether it be a path defined by rules, have a conclusive ending or be an ongoing process of events.

or something along those lines... =P

[Caz]

a game is a test of skill. i.e. can i beat some one by shoot more bad guys, and can i win a race, can i win at chess and so on. (so FPS are games. as they are a test of skill.)
there for a puzzle is a game of mantel skill

a story is number of non random events. (as i tall some one years ago when i ran a RPG and they keep try to make me use the random event tables.)

some games tell story's, even if it as bad as "i walk into a room and kill bad guy, i walk into the next room and kill more bad guy." but not all games tell story's like chess "white bishop to A5, black knight to E6"

ARG are games that can tells story's well. But what is the act of skill the player must do. We play as owner self and with have super powers. Even if we know what was going on we can't get a gun a shot the bad guy. so all actions and tasks that a player takes on must be using what ever set skill he or she has.

So we can work stuff out when it is found, or find stuff on the internet or in real life some times. But the act of having to work some thing out is a puzzle. Witch is the act of skill that makes it a ARG a game.

[danteIL]

First, as to the original topic of this thread, count me in the pro-puzzle camp. I happen to enjoy them, and I enjoy the mental gymnastics that it takes to solve them -- especially when those gymnastics happen collaboratively. Some people seem to want to suggest that anyone who demands/expects puzzles in their ARGs -- perhaps because they imprinted upon puzzle-heavy ARGs during some kind of ARG-critical period -- is hopelessly limited and reactionary in their perspective. Speaking for myself, I am willing to overlook a little artificiality in narrative structure if the payoff is a challenging puzzle that requires group effort to solve. Is it so wrong to want some "win states?"

Second, after doing a search on the forums I am surprised that no one has ever mentioned Wittgenstein in the context of how to define a "game." [Obligatory Wikipedia link] A quick summary: Wittgenstein, a philosopher of language, was interested in the distinction between meaning and use. He took as his prototypical example the concept of a "game," and used that to illustrate the inherent difficulty of generating a single definition that would cover every instance of what one would want to call a "game" (sound familiar?). Instead, he proposed that the concept of "game" only has meaning insofar as it can be established in particular contexts of use, and that any attempt to generate a context-free definition is faulty.

His important insight (which I think is useful here) is that many important concepts don't have definitions, but instead are governed by what he called "family resemblance." That is, there is no set of necessary and sufficient features which determine what is a game and what is not a game -- instead, concepts like "game" are more like a 'family' in that you can recognize particular instances as being members of the category, but there is no general set of shared similarities that exist across all instances.

This reinforces, I think, the recent discussions of ARG/CF as specific points along one or more continuua. It also suggests why we are just one big happy family.

[Rekidk]

I agree, Dante, that some 'win states' are desirable in an ARG.

Look, for example, at MeiGeist... Our final puzzle was to figure out a passcode that ended up freeing Eva. Is it entirely realistic that an evil corporation would leave hints and clues (and the ability to disable a security system) on their public website? Not really. It probably wouldn't happen in real life. But it was realistic enough that we could accept it and enjoy it--it worked within the rules of the universe.

But everyone's frustrated when a character sends an encrypted email for no reason other than to put a gate in front of you and create an artificial 'win state.' In many cases, it just doesn't fit with the reality of the game. It'd be like (to use another MeiGeist example) Eva, who has nothing to hide, encoding her blog posts with ROT-13. It doesn't fit with the rules of the universe and only serves to place a gate betweten the information and the players.

However, the real question is: are puzzles necessary to create a gate and a 'win state'? (Can gates be created without puzzles, or are the terms synonymous?) If so, what types of puzzles? Does social engineering count? (IMHO, it does: some of my favorite 'solves' have been convincing a character to do something or learning more about the character via interaction.) Are decisions (a la 'Choose Your Own Adventure' books) considered puzzles? (A puzzle to make the best decision possible?)

Let's look at LonelyGirl15. It's obviously Chaotic Fiction, but is it an ARG? (Recently, it has been far more ARGish, but let's look at the first couple months of its run.) There were no puzzles to solve--at least not as we'd think of them. But Bree would frequently say that reading the comments on her videos would cheer her up; in other words, the viewers had a role in the story, if not a direct one. Is this--leaving cheery comments--a puzzle?

To see LG15, one must visit a variety of YouTube accounts--though since we're only looking at the first few months of LG15, let's just talk about the two that were present at that point: LonelyGirl15 and DanielBeast. A viewer who wanted to watch the entire show had to visit both Bree's and Daniel's YouTube accounts and watch them both for videos. At that point, there was no all-encompassing site that had the show in its entirety. Is 'discovering' Daniel's account (even though his videos were posted as responses to Bree's) a puzzle? Does this make the first few months of LG15 an ARG?

Lately, it's become easier to classify LG15 as an ARG, because the videos have occaisionally included puzzles, there is more character interaction via the forums, etc. However, those first few months are certainly up for debate.

I guess the final question is: Can an ARG exist without 'gates' (puzzles)? If not, then how do we define the structure of those 'gates'? Again, look at the first few months of LG15 as an example of something iffy. If all the videos were posted on one site, does that make it less of an ARG?

(Also... The whole definition of a game is getting a bit over my head, so I'm not even gonna go there. )

[konamouse]

Oooh, interesting eval of LG15.
I'd probably say that the original LG15 stuff was more Chaotic Fiction (using Space's terminology). It became more ARG-like after OpAphid was accepted into the LG15 universe. Then became an ARG itself when OpAphid PM was, uh, let go and the LG15 producers/writers decided to incorporate the challenges and puzzles for the viewing audience to solve and help them progress their story. Now with a full fledged ARG writer on their staff (*cough* jan libby) I would expect next season to be much more ARG and more interactive stuff for the fans to work collaboratively with the characters. Wish I had the time to enjoy it. I just hope it all is archived for that one week when I'm home with no decent TV, tired of my DVDs and hubby out of town. Then I hope to have a nice marathon viewing session. Hah, it'll probably just come out on it's own DVD set by then.