Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Mon Nov 11, 2024 9:27 pm
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Aggressively Adaptive ARGs?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
View previous topicView next topic
Page 1 of 1 [12 Posts]  
Author Message
Eliza Welkommen
Guest


 		Aggressively Adaptive ARGs?
I began work on an ARG with no definite end, no definite puzzles, no definite plot, and no definite characters.

The ARG's point is to adapt based solely on the theories of the puppets, which means having a puppet master constantly monitoring what the puppets discuss.

Is it feasable for adaptation to be this aggressive?
Do you think that once the ARG adapts a certain amount of times, that people will begin to wonder how long it is before their theories get adapted into the plot?
Do you think, from a player perspective, that it would be fun at all?
I'm curious to see how it will turn out.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:19 pm
 Back to top 
BrianEnigma
Entrenched


Joined: 05 Oct 2003
Posts: 1199
Location: Pacific Northwest

 		Re: Aggressively Adaptive ARGs?
Eliza Welkommen wrote:
I began work on an ARG with no definite end, no definite puzzles, no definite plot, and no definite characters.

This is just my opinion and speculation, not having been a Puppet Master, but I think that you would at least want some solid characters, perhaps even a couple of general plot milestones to reach. Even if you adapt the big-picture stuff (and the medium-picture stuff), you are still going to have to build out the "baby steps" as you go: the puzzles, the character interaction, the clues, small pieces of story. For this to be consistent, I would think that you'd need at least some sense of who the characters are, their motivations, etc.

I think you would need to do a lot of plot weaving to keep things consistent and to keep players interested. What you described sounds sort of like those "pass it around the campfire" stories. You know--the kind where one person starts, brings it to a cliffhanger, then passes to the next person, etc. While these may be an interesting way of preventing boredom in the wilderness, I am not sure how well they stand on their own as engaging and captivating stories.
_________________
Y0 Resources / VP Wiki / PXC Catalog / Metacortex

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:37 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 		Re: Aggressively Adaptive ARGs?
Eliza Welkommen wrote:
I began work on an ARG with no definite end, no definite puzzles, no definite plot, and no definite characters....

Do you think, from a player perspective, that it would be fun at all?
I'm curious to see how it will turn out.


No Puzzles, No Plot, No Characters... me thinks, no players... (note I have not yet discussed the end)...

Sorry... let me explain better...

There are a number of players who are playing for the puzzles. With no definite puzzles, the PM will be pressed to scramle to toss in relavent puzzles to keep these players interested, sure some puzzles will be able to be crafted in a few minutes to a few hours, but how much of that will a PM be able to think up and code on the fly (AnthraX101, Mart and Danny, and Jamesi excepted) and got set up an a web page or out in the mail to arrive in a timely manner?

Plot... with out a plot you have no story to move the players through your puzzles. If all you want is something puzzle heavy, I'll point you to places like Riddle planet and JMX. Changing a storyline to fit some good speculations by the players is fine, but you have to have something in place for them to speculate about, just keep in mind that major changes will mean thinking up new ways to have players get from one puzzle to the next, which is more thinking and coding on the fly. Possible sure, but it will eat up a lot of time, social time, school time, work time...

Characters... some people are no good at solving puzzles, and many of them prefer to interact with the characters. Like the Puzzles and the Plot, there needs to be a solid foundation for the players to get a feel for them, or else it will fail to keep interest.


To End or Not to End... You do not have to mention an end point, however, keep in mind you do need to set one for the PMs piece of mind. Remember that your assistant PMs and BTS have other projects they would also like to play or assist with They might not want to volunteer for something that goes on for an extended length of time, especially if it is to be self perpetuating. People get burnt out when working too long at one thing and not getting closer to putting all the pieces together.

In order to keep people interested you would need to have one dem fine premise to get people interested, excited and keep them coming back for more.
_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:44 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Just my opinion:

A good ARG needs to have a compelling story and interesting characters to make it truly enjoyable. Otherwise, it's just solve a puzzle to get to the next puzzle, which isn't very fun after a while.

As far as the plot changing according to players' actions, here's the secret. The players can't really change the plot, they just are made to think that they can. Wink

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:10 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
 Back to top 
Eliza
Guest


 		my mistake
I believe that you inferred that by "no definitie" I meant "none"

There is indeed a story, puzzles, plot, and characters, however nothing is to be set in stone, everything is subject to change, and might just do so.

It is impossible to have a ARG without a plot already laid out,

I just meant to ask if elements should be set in stone, or completely subject to change.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:15 pm
 Back to top 
colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

 		Re: my mistake
Eliza wrote:
I just meant to ask if elements should be set in stone, or completely subject to change.



If they're completely subject to change, they could have not existed in the first place Wink if your willing to let your story become totally different its kind of like saying "think of a story and i'll make it happen". The players aren't going to be suprised if you do what they have already proposed should happen. Just like steve said: The players can't really change the plot, they just are made to think that they can.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:20 pm
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Eliza
Guest


 		exactly
I guess that's what I truly meant to say, the end result doesn't change, but the methods of arriving at the end do.

Similar to a choose your own adventure book, there is a story set out, but depending on what they choose, or believe, divers plot twists and endings.
The characters have base personalities, but they should be able to react to the ways the puppets play with them, just as the storyline and puzzles should.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 11:37 pm
 Back to top 
aiesha_anonymous
Veteran


Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 101
Location: Australia

 		I'd personally be really interested in playing such a truly interactive game. To me it's one of the greatest potential strengths that this genre holds. However, achieving it in a way that would be satisfying for the players I believe would require either hugely extensive resources or a limit to be placed on the number of players.

It'd be really interesting to get Dave S.'s thoughts on this however after his experience during Chasing The Wish. During CTW, from what I understand at least one of the characters came to play a different, larger role than what was originally planned due to the player response to her.

The danger of an ARG such as the one you descibe however might be that it does not have sufficient behind-the-scenes guidance and control to stop it from basically becoming an online RPG.

Aiesha

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:22 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Slyfox
Unfettered


Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

 		I guess one of the dangers might be that the players catch on as to what is happening i.e. they are writing the story. What if a consensus of players decide to put the idea to the test by manipulating the characters to do extreme things like. Rob banks, try and row across the Atlantic or worse still stand for election!

*EDIT*

Quote:
I began work on an ARG with no definite end, no definite puzzles, no definite plot, and no definite characters.


Isn't what your describing a bit like real life with a good dose of paranoia thrown in for good measure Smile Wink
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 4:14 am
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Eliza
Guest


 		paranoia
the more players begin to play, the more stressful it becomes on the PM, I know from experience.

Paranoia factor is rediculous for all parties. Mainly for the PMs.

I'm willing to put up with the stress if it works correctly.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:58 am
 Back to top 
Justin_Case
Veteran


Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 76

 		Story vs World Games
I believe you have just touched a subject that pertains to pretty much all Games in a general sense.

The issue is basically Interaction, or lack thereof.

From a practical standpoint, true unfettered interaction prevents telling a solid storyline. Conversely, a strong story cannot help to limit interaction.

The reasons for this are numerous, but can be shown clearly.
With true interaction as a goal, one quickly realizes that if every action affects the end state, more interactions means exponentially more end states (each choice at least doubling the outcomes).

When telling a story is the goal, having a precise end state (or precise steps to visit in order) prevents the players from having any actual impact from a practical point of view.

To this effect, games wanting to maximize interaction are typically made up of a minimum set of Rules. Any story-type gratification comes from navigating the game world while respecting the proper behavior.
This does not yield very potent stories (for example, famous chess matches can be seen as stories, but they communicate very little). Most games fall in this category.

Adventure games (and ARGs, as far as i am concerned), tend to shy away from rules in order to embrace a story, while making it as immersive as possible.
One might think that immersion and higher interaction go hand in hand.
I beg to differ.

Through tabletop RPGs and LARPs, I have come to realize that stories are fickle things. Storytelling games usually take one of two roads:

-Cadavre Exquis: Mostly improvisation between friends. This can be incredibly satisfying, but usually requires you know your fellow players VERY well, or else it degenerates in random chaos, every player pulling the proverbial bed sheets their way.

-Elaborate Scenario: In which players have a list of precise goals to accomplish (at least as far as the DM is concerned) to get to specific ending (or perhaps a few well defined potential endings). Usually the choices made by the players have been planned, and so their actual impact is minimal, even though from their perspective, they were never told what to do.

No matter the road taken, one thing is almost always true: No matter where you think you are leading your players, they will go everywhere and do everything they shouldn't.

The bottom line is that you should never trust players to go where you want them by themselves.
And, the way I see it, there lies the incompatibility between interaction and immersion.

Immersion occurs when you can act on instinct and yet still manage to follow the rules. The act of thinking about rules brings you in the META level of the game, not thinking about them brings you closer to it's story.

To come back to the original post, an ARG without definite plot, characters, puzzle or story, basically means an Alternate World made up mostly of rules. To this extent, MMORPG are exactly that. While in some cases they try to tell a central story, most are content (as well they should) to provide a highly interactive environment where players can experiment at will.

I see ARGs as the storytelling version of MMORPGs, where fundamental interaction is mostly sacrificed, in order for a more detailed story to be told.

As was said before, the best thing an ARG can pull off (or any story telling game for that matter) is to maintain an apparent limitless interactivity, while still controlling the flow of the narrative (getting the players where you want them).

Trust your players to have some fun, but don't trust them to do what you expect if you give them real choices.


Justin "too deep" Case

PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 4:13 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Guest
Guest


 		I've been involved with roleplaying online (Vampire: The Masquerade) for just over ten years now. The chronicles i've played in over the years are set up with no definite end in sight. There are loosely based storylines to be followed, but the majority of it is decided upon by actions of the players (who do not know the things the PM's know). I can tell you from experience, a game of any kind where Storytellers (or PM's in this case) have to come up with information on the fly based on what other players are doing or thinking is a very exhausting job. Not only do you have to create all the information at a pace much faster than if you had done it before the game started, but you have to constantly monitor the people involved on the playing side. With these roleplaying chronicles, all that information is made more readily available through one message board. The ARG world is not limited to just one message board, however. How would you maintan a proper monitoring of countless groupings of players across the internet? Even if you catered it simply for the desires of say, this forum. It is still a very tall order to ask a group of people to constantly monitor that information and quickly and successfully create storylines and plot-points (not to mention puzzles) that maintain the players attention and enjoyment.

It's a great thought, kind of like a Choose Your Own Adventure book. But it's not possible in this medium at this point.

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:16 am
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 1 [12 Posts]  
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group