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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » ARG: Aware
[META] Ouch... info leaked to Alecia 5/17
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enaxor
I Have No Life

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 2395

 		Remember the whole point of the game is "information" and how it's gathered and used. Is it possible that Alecia is bluffing? She said she had proof. I'd deny everything and ask to see the proof.

As for the information on UF, I agree this board should be off limits to the PM's, but players have always used the info posted to interact with characters. For example, this morning when it was posted that Marcus had his car blow up. I'm sure some asked him about it. Were we suppose to pretend we didn't know? I do think if a player asks that certain information be kept quiet then we should honor that request.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:46 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 2066
Location: Chicago
enaxor wrote:
Remember the whole point of the game is "information" and how it's gathered and used. Is it possible that Alecia is bluffing? She said she had proof. I'd deny everything and ask to see the proof.


A very sound remark... you should do that and see what she says...

Btw, I think it would be very likely if Alecia asked a few people that contacted her to spy for her... she says about that much in her mail to Johnathan. It's a players choice what to do with such a request, but if it would happen, she could hardly ignore it, right?

Johnathan, I'd advise you to call her bluff, see what she has to say...
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 5:52 pm
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StercusMaximus
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Joined: 19 Nov 2002
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 		Ok, so this is pretty darn confusing.....UF does not exist to in-game characters....yet Krystal came from UF....I'm assuming that's considered the exception to the rule, and since its such a weird area logistically, i'm more than happy to overlook it.

This morning, when I was talking with Marcus after the explosion, he wanted everyone to know that he'll be out of touch for a few days. He said that he's not sure where we go to trade information, but where ever it is, he'd appreciate it I could pass on the message. So this tells me that even though Krystal came from UF, and supposedly Marcus knows all about Krystal, he doesn't know about UF...does that make any sense?

SM (mbrown)

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:15 pm
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Giskard
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Joined: 07 Oct 2003
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StercusMaximus wrote:
Ok, so this is pretty darn confusing.....UF does not exist to in-game characters....yet Krystal came from UF....I'm assuming that's considered the exception to the rule, and since its such a weird area logistically, i'm more than happy to overlook it.


Yes, you are right, Krystal was a character that was a player on the boards and IRC. Although the twist this gave the game was quite original and surprising, in the aftermath of discussion, it became very apparent that this was a breach of player trust and unFiction terms of service.

This was discussed vehemently, and the conclusion of this discussion was that unFiction should be entirely out of game. The PM's, or at least Nash, were a part of this discussion and approved of the outcome (you can see part of this discussion in the META Discussions forum on this board). It is therefor that I tend to give the PM's benefit of the doubt in this case...

Oh and talking in terms of the game, as far as Marcus is concerned, Krystal was someone who had applied for a job at Idletech (much like all other "players" of AWARE, although Marcus will ofcourse not use that term) and therefor participated in the mini-ARG-like game the Ideltech guys set up as an interview process. There was never any mentioning of uF, as it did not exist in Marcus' world.

And now I'm off to bed before I get so confused I won't be able to remember if I have to go to Ideltech tomorrow morning or my own employer Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 6:24 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		the nature of spies: player info OFF LIMITS, characters OK
I can validate jonathan's point that the information obtained by Alecia was from either the board or from #ruaware as that also happened to me.
It is my belief that one of the pieces of information could only have come from the chat room.

This is how it works:
Alicia is a spy, like her ancestor Benjamin
she has been recruiting players to act as her spies, and
players have approached her and been accepted.

these players have been given tasks:
which has included gathering information on other players
the other spies in her network (spies spy on each other)
as well as information on characters and sites

these players have taken information from the board and chat to give her

when she is displeased she will let you know by revealing that she has information about you

Outcomes

Players acting as spies will not post what they are doing. Which is part of the reason it is so offensive to me. When I wrote to Alecia I posted it so everyone would know what I was doing, in faith that other players would recognize it as a strategy and not tell her that I had emailed Marcus too.
I also posted her later email to me and I asked for suggestions on how to respond. In part that post was to give the spies the message that I still had an open door to her and they should be careful with my stuff.

Other players will not post. Why feed spies? It may be hoarding and it is definitely harmful but it is reality. I confess.

Players may wrongly accuse characters of getting information directly from the boards, when in fact spies are feeding it to them. This leads to further distrust and lowering of morale.(See the post at the beginning of the thread.)

Spies benefit if players blame the PMs or the characters instead of recognizing the real culprits. Ex: How could Marcus know that we tried to hack the omniscienteyes site unless he looked at the board? Said immediately following a lengthy probative discussion about spies. Same problem.

In chat last night Scrappy said a couple of times that if players are giving personal information to the PMs it is the PMs responsibility to screen it. I disagree. I think we need to stick to the rule that information, particularly personal information, about a player is NOT to be given without that player's permission. Or without some sort of notification. Or at least without understanding that spies risk exposure at any time by other players, if not by the untrustworthy character they are helping.

Another META: to catch a spy.... can players plant false information? Will we anyway?

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:04 am
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bill
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 614
Location: Tampa
KyraB wrote:
Second, we have to remember that we've already (supposedly) had a renegade "player". Our lovely Professor could very likely be reading what we post here in UF or otherwise and then reporting it back to in-game characters as another player.


This coincides with my theory with one deviation. It might be a legitimate player blundering about without thinking about the consequences of their actions. Purely spec on my part since I have no evidence either way.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:34 am
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rosie
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 		ok
Quote:
This coincides with my theory with one deviation. It might be a legitimate player blundering about without thinking about the consequences of their actions. Purely spec on my part since I have no evidence either way.


Bill, you are so right. Anyone can make an error.
Here's the deal: the person who blundered with the list of information about me can PM me here and all is forgiven.

I'll let you know if I hear from someone, just not who. Smile

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:46 am
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

 		Re: the nature of spies: player info OFF LIMITS, characters
If UF is not off limits then we as players have nowhere safe to swap ideas etc. Eventually players begin to hog information and distrust each other and everyone at UF will suffer as a consequence, regardless of whether or not they are tacking part in AWARE. Eventually we'll end up paralyzed, just reading events as they unfold through characters blogs. Ultimately we'll all end up drift off into orbit looking for something else to do.

rose wrote:

Another META: to catch a spy.... can players plant false information? Will we anyway?


If anyone does plant false information then the whole thing will inevitably become a catch 22. If we try and use UF as a medium to spread disinformation and don't tell anyone then this will really upset people (I would suggest that this is a worse crime than PM's posting). If we do let people know it's disinformation then what's the point of posting it since we must then assume Alica will choose to only read the disinformation and not the disclaimer!

A final thought. We are still in pre-game yes? Are the PMs just trying to find stuff to keep us busy and guessing?
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 7:04 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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bagsbee wrote:
But in-game characters should, IMHO, never, never, never post in the forums or be in #ruaware, lurking or otherwise. As far as characters go, UnForums and #ruaware don't exist.


Unless players have specifically pointed the Characters to those locations.

/me remembers this topic getting hashed out during Acheron
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 9:42 am
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AnthraX101
Entrenched

Joined: 18 Mar 2003
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Magesteff wrote:
bagsbee wrote:
But in-game characters should, IMHO, never, never, never post in the forums or be in #ruaware, lurking or otherwise. As far as characters go, UnForums and #ruaware don't exist.


Unless players have specifically pointed the Characters to those locations.

/me remembers this topic getting hashed out during Acheron


Even if it is pointed out, the PMs should have enough restraint to stay the heck away. This is bad for the community as a whole, and I am worrying that this game is going to take away from the ability for ARGs to become a larger medium. If the players have no trusted place to share information, they won't, and that just hurts anyone but the most hardcore subset of players. Games like that are doomed to failure to all but an exclusive few.

AnthraX101
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:38 am
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bagsbee
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
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Magesteff wrote:
bagsbee wrote:
But in-game characters should, IMHO, never, never, never post in the forums or be in #ruaware, lurking or otherwise. As far as characters go, UnForums and #ruaware don't exist.


Unless players have specifically pointed the Characters to those locations.

/me remembers this topic getting hashed out during Acheron


Players shouldn't be telling characters about the forums and/or IRC channels specifically reserved for players (i.e. #ruaware, #acheron, #matrix, etc). That's equivalent of telling a character that they don't exist - it crosses that ingame/outofgame line (or "curtain", as it were) that should IMHO never be breached. Now, if a player does cross that line, either through simple inexperience with the "rules", or flat-out malice, then the PM should (again, IMHO) not allow their characters to see it. They're called Puppet Masters for a reason - they have complete control over not only what information their characters send out, but also what info the characters take in.

Magesteff, the case with Acheron (as I remember it) was different - we were pointing Meg to a Yahoo Group that players created for the express purpose of giving her information, which is essentially the same as telling her stuff in chat, only in a more organized way. The Yahoo Group was decidedly ingame - the PM's realized it, and allowed Meg to "see" it.

I would say more but this discussion should probably be moved to Meta.

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 10:43 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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bagsbee wrote:
They're called Puppet Masters for a reason - they have complete control over not only what information their characters send out, but also what info the characters take in.


I think that wraps it up best. The Puppet Masters control the characters and can choose to ignore any information given to that character.
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:59 am
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rosie
Guest


 		two post in one: acheron and musings on spies
Quote:
Magesteff, the case with Acheron (as I remember it) was different - we were pointing Meg to a Yahoo Group that players created for the express purpose of giving her information

Acheron
Yes, Bagsbee, that is true. But the Yahoo Group was created by Magesteff only after I unknowingly commited a terrible faux pas of sending a character information from unfiction.

At that stage I hadn't even found the META section of the board and had no idea what I was doing.

Naturally I tend toward forgiveness of accidental blunders in a really huge way after that one. Smile

META
These META issues are really complicated. So I will just respectfully disagree as I feel players have a mutual responsiblity to respect each other's strategies and information. In thinking this through, however, I fail to see how being a spy would ever be a good strategy to invest in as a player. You are not only giving information to a character but also giving that character the power to embarass you later on in exchange for very little.

My Approach
FYI: This was my approach to try to keep a connection with Alecia. I told her I would never give her information on Ideltech employees or my friends. I told her I didn't need money so I couldn't be bought. But I told her that she could trust that I would never lie to her so that any information she got from me would be 100% accurate.

I hoped that as a spy she would appreciate the value of solid information. She did respond in an email and asked me for information about Thad and the Restorers. As all of the other characters are furious with me for even mentioning her name, I haven't responded.

And in the interest of complete disclosure, I received an email from Thad that named specific players as the potential source of the "leak." He asked me for information about them. I emailed him back saying that I wouldn't spy on anyone but that I would do anything else I could to help him catch these people. Haven't heard back yet.

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 12:59 pm
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Rasputin42x69
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: Eris' Bar & Grill, Limbo

 		Re: two post in one: acheron and musings on spies
rosie wrote:
And in the interest of complete disclosure, I received an email from Thad that named specific players as the potential source of the "leak." He asked me for information about them. I emailed him back saying that I wouldn't spy on anyone but that I would do anything else I could to help him catch these people. Haven't heard back yet.


This could very well be a major PM clue here. Perhaps it's their way of making it up to us.

I'd be more than happy to help ferret out the spies with this. Twisted Evil Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 2:09 pm
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