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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
Advise please
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		Advise please
Here is a problem that I have and I was hoping to get some advice on how to handle it.

In AWARE another player (saucy--I might as well put his name as it's not a secret and save you the trouble of looking for it) has used personal information of mine (which has been addressed already) and also has attacked me when I unveiled him as a spy. This created, I am told, a minor furor. And Saucy shifted the blame onto another player, which I would have prevented had I been here. People were upset by this, mostly me, as I wasn't there to defend myself (or offer the proof that I had if needed ) and as he didn't in any case, bother to PM me to tell me what he was doing.

I don't like being treated like this. And, I don't intend to tolerate being treated in an unacceptable manner. But at the same time I understand that some people just want everyone to get along. The problem is that if
someone behaves badly towards me in a public way I need to be able to explain my point of view. If Saucy says, Rose I had to pretend this ....hope you aren't mad. I expect to be able to reply, Yes, I am mad. And then to hear that I shouldn't be upset because it's just a game is maddening.


What is the best way to address this in the future?
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 11:35 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

 		I'm not sure how you should react to what happened to you. I think the best thing to do is to remember that AWARE is a game and anything done by you or to you is done because someone is playing the game. Saucy may have not done a good job of playing the game, but that was the intent (a game). I'm sure it wasn't malicious.

I think there is a greater issue here. I think it is the fact that this ARG has two sides. Can we effectively all work together even though half of us are on one side and half of us are on another? Can we still maintain a meta relationship while playing the game? Should we? Should all the spies know what the employees are doing and vice versa? Or should some of this game be a surprise, unpredictable and keep us on our toes? I think as this genre grows we will better understand how to react to these sorts of things. Having two sides that players can take against each other is new and the concept may or may not work. We'll have to wait and see.

Maybe it would help if we try to put ourselves in an AWARE spy's shoes trying to find info on Ideltech employees and maybe specifically you, rose (and no, I'm not really a spy)...

Ok, so I'm a spy. I'm supposed to be spying on Ideltech employees, perhaps specifically rose, and gathering info. I know I'm not supposed to use information that the AWARE players talk about out-of-game. So unfiction forums are out and so is #aware. Technically, my in-game character, the spy, is not supposed to even know that unfiction exists. So anything that you say in a post or while chatting in #aware, I have to ignore. Or rather, I can't use it against you.

What other contact do I have with you? Do I have any way of contacting you in-game? If I personally email you and strike up a conversation is it acceptable for me to use the info I gain from that? What if I PM you in IRC? Obviously now we have the in-game board UI, but players know they are in-game there and will be sure not to reveal anything that spies could use against them. If I find a personal website, can I use information from that?

So overall, the role of a spy has become quite difficult. The only way to gather info is to do it in-game or through personal contact. Is that the way it should be? Shouldn't the spies have a difficult job as they would in real life? Or since this is a game, should it be easier and should the non-spies be more forgiving? Remember that as I, as a spy, my goal in the game is to find out info on you. We're not on the same side. Shouldn't the spies be able to play their side of the game even if the employees aren't playing the same way? I don't know which is the right answer.

I still haven't worked all of this out in my brain, but this is what I see so far...

The job of a spy is not easy. As a spy I have to be sneaky and personable. I have to gain info through any means except for through UF posts and #ruaware content. I'll have to find other ways to gain info. Now should I let you know that I'm doing this on the UF forums? I don't know. We are all playing this game together, but we are on opposite sides with different objectives. If everyone knows everything about both sides, will the game not be any fun and will it not have any surprises at all?

Also, something to keep in mind about the spies. It is possible that there is a huge difference between the number of spies and the number of employees. This is probably because the first opportunity we had to sign up for the game was signing us up for one of the sides. Is the PM trying to out employees, get them mad, get them to quit or whatever so that they will defect to the spy side of things? Is he just trying to get a closer to 50/50 split between the groups? Or a 33/33/33 split if you include the restorers?
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"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 12:26 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia
Varin wrote:
The job of a spy is not easy. As a spy I have to be sneaky and personable. I have to gain info through any means except for through UF posts and #ruaware content. I'll have to find other ways to gain info. Now should I let you know that I'm doing this on the UF forums? I don't know. We are all playing this game together, but we are on opposite sides with different objectives. If everyone knows everything about both sides, will the game not be any fun and will it not have any surprises at all?


This seems to have started an interesting chain of comments across many different threads. While I am not actively playing AWARE (and have now left #ruaware, in part, because of all the latest developments), I think I am starting to get a handle on some of the inter-member squabbles and difficulties related to this latest line of ARG form.

Whether you agree with it or not, the basis for the AWARE game is starting to take shape into pitting players against each other. If this is the type of game for you, you will continue (or start) to play, knowing that you are going to be interacting with people that are not always going to be on your side of the fence. If you find that to be an acceptable way to play, you will probably enjoy yourself immensely. The only advice I can offer in that regard is to echo the words of many previous posts to this one: It is a GAME and must be treated as such, without personal attacks or derogatory statements towards other players, on these forums.

We talk about the TOS a lot, and when it says "You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any applicable laws," and "You also agree not to register or post messages under more than one identity, or to attempt to abuse the forums or the server on which they reside in any way," it's pretty clear what Spacely wants these forums to look like. If that means you have to decide what to share or what to divulge, and where and how to go about doing that, then I would ask that every member thinks about that decision before hitting the Submit button.

At the same time, if AWARE is turning into a game you don't want to play, then maybe it's time to pack up and go away from it (even if it's just for the time being). There's really no need to start bashing PMs or BTS people for their choices within the confines of the ARG they have set up. By setting the game up as they have, the creators have laid down the tracks for all players to follow, and they surely must realize that those tracks are not going to be the most interesting for every member of these forums to travel upon.

So, that being said, my hope is that players of AWARE come to some sort of consensus about how they want to go about playing the game, where the feelings of others aren't getting hurt (as I seeing evidence of already).
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 12:49 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
Quote:
Technically, my in-game character, the spy, is not supposed to even know that unfiction exists. So anything that you say in a post or while chatting in #aware, I have to ignore.

What other contact do I have with you? Do I have any way of contacting you in-game? If I personally email you and strike up a conversation is it acceptable for me to use the info I gain from that? What if I PM you in IRC? Obviously now we have the in-game board UI, but players know they are in-game there and will be sure not to reveal anything that spies could use against them. If I find a personal website, can I use information from that?


It sounds to me that in order to play AWARE, you need to have two seperate identities. It is no longer you participating in an alternate reality, you are now participating in role playing. In order to gather information then and to experience the game, you need to interact as your in-game character. Nash has set up a board for that purpose and perhaps you should set up an IRC channel or two in order to chat "in character". Things that are said there, of course, would be in-game. Things that are said outside of that are, of course, out of game. If you are a "spy", you need to do what a spy would do. You need to take the time and effort to get in on both sides. You need to create little safe havens for your fellow spies and you may end up trusting people that are spying on the spies... who knows. It could certainly provide for some fun and confusion. However, imo, it is not an ARG and should not be played like one.

An ARG does not require one to create characters. It is YOU in an Alternate Reality. It is not a CHARACTER that you create. One of the big differences is that you don't play an ARG, you experience it. When you experience an ARG, you are joined by any number of other people experiencing it with you. You don't need a character, you just need yourself and your desire to uncover a world that sits in front of you.

I think that is where a lot of the difficulty has been lately. People are taking things very personally when it is very much a character and persona driven experience. I can understand the personal feelings involved and do not mean to discount them in anyway. However, I think that understanding the game for what it is would help in avoiding such things in the future. If role playing is for you, fantastic! I hope that you get out of AWARE what you want (and remember, the more you put into something the more you get out of it!). If it's not for you, that's great too. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to experience it. You can even lurk and watch for puzzles or interesting plot points to throw your two cents in on. There's absolutely nothing wrong with lurking. You may even find that you want to dive back in at some point after the dust settles and you see how it's all playing out.

When it comes down to it, we're all here because we enjoy interesting experiences. So I say, let's get back to enjoying things. If you find that you aren't enjoying AWARE (or whatever game) then it's time to step back and take a breather. Life's too short to waste your time not enjoying stuff Smile

-imbri

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 1:28 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
imbri wrote:
It sounds to me that in order to play AWARE, you need to have two seperate identities. It is no longer you participating in an alternate reality, you are now participating in role playing...

However, imo, it is not an ARG and should not be played like one.


Good point imbri. I think maybe you're right. I think you've made a few things a bit more concrete in my mind. AWARE is sort of like an MMORPG.

Everyone who is playing has created a character that they play the game through. You usually pick a side - good or evil, Imperial or Rebel, etc. (Sometimes you can choose to be neutral.) While playing if someone on the other side kills me, I roleplay and my character is 'mad' at the character. I'm not actually mad at the player behind the character, because they are just playing the game the way they are supposed to on their side.

Of course, everyone else has their right to their feelings.
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 3:06 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		This is all very interesting. So is it the consensus that if I chose to be a double agent in this game I would have to use a seperate identity like the Phoenix? Is it possible to play this game as a spy who is simply passing information from Alecia to Thad or Marcus. And then post that to the board here? Players would not be able to inform on me and I would have access to the information that I need for the guide. Smile

This is all way too META for me....I need help figuring it out.

I'm trying to understand these issues that are apparent to more experienced people.
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I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 4:42 pm
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
rose wrote:
This is all way too META for me....I need help figuring it out.

I'm trying to understand these issues that are apparent to more experienced people.


Honestly Rose, I don't know if it's all that apparent to me either. I really have no idea how to go about it all. I was just noticing that it seemed as if you had to take on a role in order to play AWARE. You had to choose a side and the side that you chose would determine which forums at IU you could view and participate in. Outside of that bit of knowledge, I'm rather at a loss when it comes to AWARE and how to "spy" and all of those issues. Any suggestions?

-imbri

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2004 5:04 pm
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