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Poll

What method would you prefer to learn about new games?

Opt-in list for initial in game contact
18%
 18%  [ 3 ]
Newsletter (such as ARGN sends out listing all new games)
25%
 25%  [ 4 ]
Finishing games sharing contact lists with new games
12%
 12%  [ 2 ]
Website such as Collective Detective, Unfiction or ARGN
43%
 43%  [ 7 ]

Total Votes : 16
 

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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

 		Discovery is the best way, imho. I don't need to be smacked across the forehead with a "New ARG Here" brick. Let me find things on my own (which, incidentally, tells you my opinion on registration and pre-game shenanigans).
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2004 9:56 pm
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

 		Re: Please don't Assume
I'm pretty sure that in the UK (and European Union, EU) you need informed (not assumed) consent to pass on people's personal details you may be holding in a database. That is why the tick box at the end of the small print should now read something like "If you wish to receive information from similar companies to our own tick here" rather than "If you do not wish to receive information from similar companies to our own tick here"

Also if you hold personal information you need to ensure that it is accurate which would require people to update their contact details every so often.
Aside: If in the UK you are receiving mail for people at your address who have moved away and you've informed the sender but you still continue to receive the mail then the sender is most likely in breach of the data protection act.

You cannot hold data which is unnecessary to your stated purpose. By that I mean you can't keep a record of shoe size, height, eye colour, age, race, religion, smoker,/non smoker without a good reason. If this has been anonomised, so that it is impossible to tie an individual to a particular fact, then you should be okay

Finally, since the US has legislation like the 'freedom of information act' then EU organisations should to anonomise any sensitive personal information that is sends outside of the EU before it is transmitted.
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"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:19 am
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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany

 		Losing momentum
Sometimes I think we are actually going the wrong direction in the ARG genre. When Majestic came out, even though it failed, I thought another game would soon be out. But somehow the momentum died and the amount of people that have played ARG's and is still playing ARG's is very different. The amount of people still playing ARG's is much smaller. I see about 40-50 people who have been here a while. Where have the rest gone? I see about a base of 200 people that change over pretty regularly. Which leads me believe that if we have 250 people active in this Genre we have some work to do as a Genre. I for one believe ARG's have the potential to be as big as any other type of entertainment. I believe a possibility exists that it could be the MAIN discussion at the water cooler one day. People discussing what is going on in the ARG they are in. But we must find a way to reach out and bring more people in. I am experimenting with an idea right now. One that I believe might work. I am contacting corporations with the intent of providing them free advertising "in-game" for the exchange of putting something on their site that says something like "as seen in-------" or something to that effect. Cooperative Marketing is the first step. My next is making advertisers pay for the advertising, but small steps before running. I wwill find away for the adds to look natural and unintrusive. Such as show the character in a particullar car in one of my videos. This is just another idea.

But in conclusion, what if you came accross an ARG while you were surfing for a cell-phone? Would that be an interesting way? To be linked from cellular-one to a Meta-site?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:58 am
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

 		Re: Losing momentum
NashCarey wrote:
I believe a possibility exists that it could be the MAIN discussion at the water cooler one day. People discussing what is going on in the ARG they are in.


I'd love to see this too but I can think of about 10 reason's off the top of my head why ARGing or a derivative there of is never likely to become a mainstream phenomenon. However, as a niche market I still think it has a long way to grow. I think a commercial tie in has potential but I know this will open up the debate on selling out to the big boys. I don't think there are any easy solutions but one of the first things that might have to go is TINAG. Just look at the number of Meta discussions it throws up here and this is amongst people who are supposed to understand how an Arg works.
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:36 am
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

 		Re: Losing momentum
NashCarey wrote:
I for one believe ARG's have the potential to be as big as any other type of entertainment. I believe a possibility exists that it could be the MAIN discussion at the water cooler one day. People discussing what is going on in the ARG they are in. But we must find a way to reach out and bring more people in.


RPG's are not a water cooler discussion yet and they have been around ~30 years. Granted not everyone is interested in that type of game play, even though it does offer something for every type of genre. But RPG's are in the news as being a stable business, so that much I think is possible. Just remember that it does take a few years for a regular business to get off the ground, and with ARG's being a new type of business, expect it to take a bit longer than the average.
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A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:04 am
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bagsbee
Unfettered


Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 417
Location: NYC

 		I don't think this poll even applies to everyone who has posted so far. If someone here finds a rabbit hole to an honest-to-goodness ARG, anyone who hangs out here regularly will know about it in about 0.7 seconds.

Of course, what happens when someone outside the ARG community finds the rabbit hole? This is what happened when statik found metacortechs.com, and it was only a matter of time before UF caught wind of it (how exactly did UF catch wind of it, anyway? Did statik post here?). You'd think that either a) that person would find us, or b) we would find them. There couldn't possibly be an ARG out there that we don't know about.....could there? Shocked

Then you have players who were at one time active members of the community but for whatever reason aren't around anymore. For example, there are a number of Metacortechs players that sorta vanished once the game finished. I like the idea of those of us MU players who stuck around (yanka, joebrent, BrianEnigma, Giskard, etc, etc) contacting those players directly, with a "hey dude, haven't heard from you in a while, there's this new ARG that's out, head on over to UF if yer interested" type deal. I know I certainly wouldn't mind that.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:25 am
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imbriModerator
Entrenched


Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland

 		Re: Losing momentum
First off, I disagree with Nash that the genre is losing momentum. It's been steadily growing and gaining attention for the past three years. Not only that, but there have been several pervasive games that have recieved great media over the last few months that have been noticed by industry people as well as academics. I don't think that I would have been accepted to the program that I was accepted into had that not been the case. I have no other media experience and, lets face it, my design skills are virtually non-existant (esp. compared to others in the program!). There is interest out there, right now it's a money thing. If investors can't figure out how they'll get there money back (and then some), they aren't interested.

Slyfox wrote:
NashCarey wrote:
I believe a possibility exists that it could be the MAIN discussion at the water cooler one day. People discussing what is going on in the ARG they are in.


I'd love to see this too but I can think of about 10 reason's off the top of my head why ARGing or a derivative there of is never likely to become a mainstream phenomenon. However, as a niche market I still think it has a long way to grow. I think a commercial tie in has potential but I know this will open up the debate on selling out to the big boys. I don't think there are any easy solutions but one of the first things that might have to go is TINAG. Just look at the number of Meta discussions it throws up here and this is amongst people who are supposed to understand how an Arg works.


I agree with everything here aside from, obviously, TINAG. Especially when it comes to "commercial tie in" as we know how much the "big boys" love guerilla marketing. What aspects of TINAG do you think needs to be taken away and why?

-imbri

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:33 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		"Push,NV" was an attempt at combination of mass media marketing and ARG. Maybe if it had been on a different time zone it might have made it through the full season.

BMW has also tried ARG with advertising and last year had 250 people complete entries into the drawing for a new car (you had to have finished the whole 'game' to submit an entry but I heard that once someone in the 'community' had the solve, it was shared with others).

Aspen Cologne had a fun online 'game' just before the holidays in 2002. Crashed/got gummed up on the grand finale (Christmas Day) and cost them $$$ because more than the planned number of people got the notice that they were winners.

Certainly the presence of banner ads and such on websites is becoming so mainstream that if an 'in-game' sight had such, it would seem real world. But how many of us dislike banner ads or popups?
Advertising in the movies, yup, that is what BMW did. The car was featured in all of the movies that year.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:05 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		I just remembered "do'h".

Virtuquest. http://www.virtuquest.com/ They seem to be specializing in Corporate Team Building games using ARG. They've done a couple for the masses on the internet (independents) but the other 'games' have been for groups. I suppose they are doing this as a business. An extension of the Corporate Team Building ideas that involve cooperation to climb a wall or cross a ravine on a narrow rope bridge at a sleepaway camp.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:34 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be
konamouse wrote:
"Push,NV" was an attempt at combination of mass media marketing and ARG. Maybe if it had been on a different time zone it might have made it through the full season.


I know alot of people who watched the show, who told me they didn't want to figure out the puzzle/ARG aspect of it. I don't think an ARG is going to compete with movies or television any time in the near future. With the increasing popularity of reality shows, I really think that a good portion of population want their entertainment to be mindless. (that's not supposed to be an insult, I watch reality shows all the time) They work hard all day and want to veg out for awhile. My husband, in-laws, parents and sister, for example, cannot fathom why I would want to solve puzzles for fun. So they aren't the type who would want to play an ARG with puzzles, especially if you had to pay for it! I'm guessing a great majority of the population feels this way.

On the other hand, video games are quickly becoming more and more popular. The generation growing up now spends as much time, if not more, video gaming than watching tv. So who knows, maybe that will bleed over into ARGs.

Quote:
BMW has also tried ARG with advertising and last year had 250 people complete entries into the drawing for a new car (you had to have finished the whole 'game' to submit an entry but I heard that once someone in the 'community' had the solve, it was shared with others).


Even for a new BMW only 250 would solve a puzzle, hehe. I forgot about that one. It would be interesting to do a study on this.

Quote:
Aspen Cologne had a fun online 'game' just before the holidays in 2002. Crashed/got gummed up on the grand finale (Christmas Day) and cost them $$$ because more than the planned number of people got the notice that they were winners.


I was one of them that got the notice that I was a winner, as did my husband. From what I heard the advertising company (the ones who produced the game) had to pay the players the money. I'm guessing it didn't come out of Coty's pocket (the makers of Aspen).
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"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:49 am
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK
Nash wrote:
I for one believe ARG's have the potential to be as big as any other type of entertainment. I believe a possibility exists that it could be the MAIN discussion at the water cooler one day.

I'm curious, did you have media other than just the internet in mind when you wrote this ?

imbri wrote:
I agree with everything here aside from, obviously, TINAG. Especially when it comes to "commercial tie in" as we know how much the "big boys" love guerilla marketing. What aspects of TINAG do you think needs to be taken away and why?
-imbri


What I'm getting at is that it all depends on what you take TINAG to mean, is it;

A. A willing acceptance that this is fiction. Having acknowledged this then choosing to act as though it is real.
or
B. Being genuinely unsure whether it is real or not.

Depending on which you adopt I believe does affect how you treat an ARG. (Maybe there is another way of thinking about TINAG of which I am unaware)

If you take definition A then at some point you specifically have to spell out that 'The events you are about to witness are all real' which is kind of like saying that they are not. Even if you can get this kind of buy in from a mainstream audience how do you control the Trolls who will spend all their time pointing out that it is a game. The only way I can think to avoid this would be to present the action through a heavily moderated environment like a once weekly TV show where the audience get to email in there questions to the characters, get to 'press the red button (UK reference)' to decide what happens next week or a reality TV show along the lines of The Mole where you watch members of the public participating in an ARG. Interesting ideas in their own rights but not necessarily ARGs.

If you take definition B then as a PM I think your going to be limited as to what you can do and get away with. Stage a bombing or a murder and as soon as the media get one whiff of it the whole curtain comes tumbling down. If you did manage to pull it off then you could easily find yourself labelled as a hoaxer and vilified by those who don't get it (thinking about the Godsend site here) or do something badly, cause a panic and you could find yourself in jail. Unfortunately, law enforcement rarely has much imagination or a sense of humour in my experience.

A third option would be to say. Hey, This Is A Game (TIAG)™ and this is how you play.
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"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:51 am
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		To me, the TINAG aspect of the games is the fundamental point that can most successfully draw players in. It's the immediate fun of discovery with a major WTF? factor that does it. What's going on?? What is this?? Who's behind it?? Where does this lead??

For example, if The Beast had merely put an URL for Jeanine Salla at the end of the trailer, it would have diluted the experience immensely, and really lessened the game's impact and ultimate success IMO.

It's the immediate mystery of it all that's the strongest hook, the excitement of these first discoveries that's so exhilarating. Ask any of the early Beast or Metacortechs players (I hope Very Happy ), and they'll tell you the same, I would bet.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:13 pm
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imbriModerator
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Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 1182
Location: wonderland
Slyfox wrote:
What I'm getting at is that it all depends on what you take TINAG to mean, is it;

A. A willing acceptance that this is fiction. Having acknowledged this then choosing to act as though it is real.
or
B. Being genuinely unsure whether it is real or not.


or C) none of the above

Personally, I look at TINAG as a philosophy for the developers more than for the players. It's about taking the attitude that you are not creating a game but an experience. It's about not defining the game. It's about not admitting that you are creating a game. It's about not having meta sites that tell people that it's a game and when, where, and how play it. Think of it as a mission statement of sorts, a way to get direction when you need it.

Obviously there is an experience for participants to explore. Those participants will likely define it as a game. At that point, it's out of the developers hands and while they can and should direct the players, they can't force them to adopt certain behaviors and attitudes. The experience is fluid and moves with the tide and, imo, that's where most games stumble and PMs panic. They aren't willing or able to accept and adapt to the tides and tend to forget that they aren't creating a game, but an experience. Some stumbles lead to falling flat on your face and some are so small that the participants and the others on your PM team may not even notice.

Now, like most things in life, I don't believe that TINAG is black and white. That you either have it or you don't. Perhaps that's me just wanting to be flexible, I dunno. I can understand the need for a Meta site and believe that there could be a wide range of information there. Heck, in MU, which was very much TINAG, I'd almost consider Underscore Hosting as a meta site as it was the site that we used to get information to the players. It allowed us to show which sites were created by us. It allowed us to get out a TOU and it allowed us to say "hey! quit bruteforcing stuff!". So, we did define our gamespace and we did tell players how and where to play, but It was all done in a very "in game" manner. So, in my mind, it's a matter of degree.

I just do not believe that in order for the genre to succeed on a larger or a commercial level (esp with promotional tie ins) that we have to throw the entire philosophy out the window and say "hey! here's a game! sign up here! play here! have a question or issue contact us! Remember this is just a game and any similarity to real people, real events, or real life is unintentional! Play Now!".

Could it work? Absolutely.
Is it necessary? I really don't think so.

-imbri

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:15 pm
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
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imbri wrote:

Personally, I look at TINAG as a philosophy for the developers more than for the players. It's about taking the attitude that you are not creating a game but an experience. It's about not defining the game. It's about not admitting that you are creating a game. It's about not having meta sites that tell people that it's a game and when, where, and how play it. Think of it as a mission statement of sorts, a way to get direction when you need it.


I agree with what you say here and I have to confess I've never really thought about TINAG from a PMs perspective, having never been behind the curtain. As you say, as a philosophy for developing the alternative reality its an excellent idea and helps you to break free from the idea of the linear storyline which the players must follow regardless of their actions.

I think the true test of TINAG (and PMs) does come though once the players turn up. It takes a lot of courage as a PM (especially in this small community where you might be well known) to force players to live with the consequences of there actions within the TINAG environment of the ARG and not risk losing friends in places like UF.

The more I think about it the more it seems to me that 'forcing players to live with the consequences of there actions' is the true test of TINAG.

Consider the following example;

A player libels a character within the ARG by posting something on an in ARG board. The player should be prepared to receive a letter from a lawyer informing them that they are to be sued for deformation of character. If the player then says 'Oh I don't like the way this game is going. I'm going to quit' it should make no difference and the PMs should continue to act as if TINAG and proceed with the legal action, even if it is entirely fictitious. Of course the player then might have a real claim for harassment against the PMs. At some point this stops being fun for everyone involved and TINAG must be broken.

<edit>
Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I hope that Melody gets an injuction taken out againsy Mos. And not through L3 either. He should be made to sweat a little for this.
</edit>

Perhaps if PMs truly wish to stick to TINAG then I think it might be necessary to have a Meta site to allow players to officially 'leave a game' as well as join one.

I'm figuring if you want to introduce the idea of ARGing to the mass market then your going to need some kind of water tight disclaimer be signed by all parties involved to avoid legal action over, harassment, copyright violation, liable, physiological damage, illegal activity etc. Something written by a lawyer which means money.
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"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:59 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		Slyfox wrote:
Quote:
At some point this stops being fun for everyone involved and TINAG must be broken


This is OT a little but... Since I started working on the WIKI for AWARE I have become a member of the WIKI community. There is a group that is dedicated to discussing on-line communities and I have been learning quite a bit from them. See the main point for me in playing an ARG is to play as part of a community, particularly this community which has people and values I respect, so that is an essential part of the genre for me.

I am putting some ideas about community here, not that we aren't doing them or as a criticism about anything, any topic or anyone.

I just found them to be helpful priniciples to consider.

The most important concept is that if there is anything to protect in an online community it is the community spirit.
Maintaining the community spirit is everyone's job. WIKI communities have learned that a they work only when they are positive environments where everyone comes together to act on each other's behalf, and to do so quickly. The best people are the precious commodities to invest in, not the worst. Nothing that a troublemaker says or does makes it worth while. Spending inordinate amounts of time on things that aren't fun is a clear signal something is wrong.

The WIKI community, because of the ability of anyone to edit, has suffered major flame wars which have erupted into what they call forest fires. There is no clear best practice to deal with this, other than no one person should be left either to defend against a trouble maker nor should one person be left unsupported. One victim of poor treatment is "only" one and may be ignored by others in the quest to seek peace in the community. But seeking peace by ignoring an issue is not always the best answer, even if the peace of the community is temporarily disrupted.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:13 am
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