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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
In-Game Characters Referencing unFiction
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tygr20
Unfettered


Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Location: New Albany IN(READ: Louisville KY)

In-Game Characters Referencing unFiction

anonymousloli wrote:
Axys Denyed wrote:
If I may threadjack for a moment, I've noticed a disturbing trend in some of the newer trailheads. It seems they think they're "edgy", trying to bring unFiction into their game. The problem with this is that it completely destroys the validity of said game. unFiction, being a strictly OOG resource where the game is discussed as a game, cannot be acknowledged by IG characters without them acknowledging that they are in a game. If they mention anything taken directly from the boards (quoting what we say here) or post here, they're destroying their own universe and admitting that they are not real. It just boggles the mind that someone trying to run a successful game would try such a tactic. </threadjack>

That being said, this game does seem interesting. I like the high production value on the videos, and the personal spin it's put on getting the trailhead to everyone. I'll be keeping an eye on this one.


How does it destroy the universe? Honestly, if you were to search for something... like, for my Daily Murder ARG, for instance. If you were to search for some of the details from the game, you'd come up with the uF thread. All you have to do is say, "oh, I see you're talking about me here, so I'll keep looking at that. :3"

How hard is it to use google? :/ You don't have to admit it's a game just because you found this site. By that notion, sending out trailheads to emails found in the interaction thread destroys the universe too, doesn't it? Especially if those emails were made solely for ARGs.


Of course you'd come up with uF in your search. 90% of results for "Tom Tooman" lead to uF. It's the responsibility of the PM to make these characters "ignore" that information. How else are we supposed to congregate and solve puzzles and such? IRC isn't an option anymore- characters interact there as well. All I know is while it may not be TOS violating for a PM or IG characters to refer to uF, it IS bad form. Bottom line- uF should be considered a separate "reality" from that created by the PMs. TINAG... but as soon as the character sees people talking about "ARGs" and "the game," doesn't that break that? If in my reality, I witnessed a murder, and I on people for help, those people were treating it as a game- I wouldn't be able to comprehend that. The interaction thread is solely for the PM to use to start his/her ARG. The IG characters should admit to no knowledge of the interaction thread. That's how I see it, whether I'm right or wrong.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:29 am
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Lovek
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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Re: In-Game Characters Referencing unFiction

Well... really. There have been MANY "guidelines," but only two "rules" that anyone has ever tried to place on the process of ARG creation:

1. Don't talk about Unfiction.
2. DON'T TALK ABOUT UNFICTION!

I realize that trying to make such a rule is begging for it to be broken, but come on... it's easy, it doesn't in any way limit creativity, it's never hurt anyone...

In fact, it makes the world a happier and less complicated place for everyone. And isn't that all we want out of life? It's like saying "Wear sunscreen." Simple, effective, everyone wins, and the citizens of the world live a more wonderful life (unless you're allergic to PABA).

As for other reasons? Well, other than the valid ones mentioned above my post, there's this:

It's been done. Many times. It's over. It's, like, so totally 2006, bro.

Just one person's opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:51 am
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Silent|away
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Well, er, to be fair, I think mentioning UF is basically breaking the fourth wall. It's done for comedy or for dramatic effect. I'd mark it as the same way as "TINAG". Say "This is not a game", and I immeadily scream. Because by saying TINAG, you are admitting it is in fact a game.

I would rather that a PM say this:
Quote:
"Shut up! Oh shut up! Me having to deal with these loons! I mean, I sent this email message to this one person, hoping for help, and what does he do? Instead of treating it like a serious issue that must be kept secret for security reasons, he treats it like some high-tech video game and post it on 'unforums' looking for help to solve puzzles. Egad. The utter incompetence.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:01 pm
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sixsidedsquare
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Joined: 24 Mar 2005
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Location: 60E

I've made comments on this in the past and I'll just reiterate my view here again (rewording for the 3rd or 4th time).

Unfiction being Out Of Game just makes things easier on everyone. The logical extension from what anonymousloli was saying, is that if people are collaborating on something ARG-like as if it were real, they would in no way use a public forum. The obvious option is to make a private board somewhere, and only invite people they know and trust. But herein lies the problem, you cut off a huge chunk of your possible audience. No one can just browse the game and see if they want to play, where most games on unfiction get a huge percentage of their audience from.

Being treated as Out Of Game (essentially non-existant for characters) makes unfiction a safe place for players to discuss the game, without making it a closed affair and castrating many of those that might play the game.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:36 pm
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xnbomb
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Running silent

sixsidedsquare wrote:
The obvious option is to make a private board somewhere, and only invite people they know and trust. But herein lies the problem, you cut off a huge chunk of your possible audience. No one can just browse the game and see if they want to play, where most games on unfiction get a huge percentage of their audience from.

That's one practical problem associated with taking that approach. Here's another such problem: Once a puppetmaster drives their players into hiding from their characters, they lose the opportunity to keep track of what the players are writing and thinking. For puppetmasters to be able to see what players post on these forums (or write in IRC channels) is invaluable to them. Just because characters should not be gaining direct access to information from out-of-game resources does not mean that puppetmasters cannot make excellent use of that information in other ways. Once the meta-communication between players and puppetmasters is cut off, the whole thing gets a fair bit harder to carry off, in my observation.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:54 pm
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Rekidk
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Joined: 19 Dec 2006
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I couldn't agree more with sixsidedsquare and xnbomb. Ultimately, having Unfiction as OOG makes the experience more enjoyable for BOTH the players AND the PMs. It really is easier.

BTW, it's not hard for a character to say, "Darnit, I found this website called Unfiction but it won't open in my web browser! Oh well." Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:33 pm
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vpisteve
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Let us not forget that there have been many instances of games directly linking back to the player communities who are playing them. If memory serves, The Beast, Lockjaw, Ilovebees and Last Call Poker (and maybe Art of the Heist, I can't remember) all did this. The thinking behind it from a design standpoint has been that this serves to help new players who stumble upon the sites find out what's going on, by directing them to the communities. Admittedly, players can just as easily Google, but hey...

These links have all been pretty subtle, more being like "hey, these folks are on the trail, they may be of help" sort of thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:53 pm
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Silent|away
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To be devil's advocate here...and maybe on a tangentical note:

Having an OOG forum where players can discuss about the game and solve puzzles sort of takes away from TINAG. It IS really a game.

To be fair, it's a good thing, because we really don't want a game where players can't tell what's fiction and what's real. Concering the myraid plots that ARGs usually have, if such an ARG would be developed, the PMs would cancel it mid-game due to being thrown in the slammer. But maybe, I want such a game in the future, a game where you don't know if it is in fact a real event, or if it it is fake...at least until the game actually ends and the PMs admit it is all a hoax.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:36 pm
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rowan
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
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Silent|away wrote:
But maybe, I want such a game in the future, a game where you don't know if it is in fact a real event, or if it it is fake...at least until the game actually ends and the PMs admit it is all a hoax.


It's all fun and games until you're in the middle of the West Virginia wilderness, sore from hiking, sleep deprived and incredibly jumpy from a late night frightfest. So when you do hear someone screaming for help, and you do see someone getting beaten and kidnapped, your brain short circuits and all you can think about is calling 9-1-1.

Of course, the fact that you're in the middle of the wilderness without any phones prevents you from doing this, allowing you to take a moment to think about things rationally and realize it was all just a part of the show. Now pretend your somewhere where you do have a phone and you do call 9-1-1. I can't imagine any of the parties involved would be happy about that. All it takes is for one person to have one moment of panic to bring everything crashing down. The less 'real' something is, the less likely that the panic will overwhelm you. And I don't care how prepared or how in the 'game moment' you are - it can still hit you like a ton of bricks.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:58 am
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Silent|away
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In such a game where the goal is to not let on that the game is fake, I am thinking that less lethal plots are used. What about guild drama, where people just vent and scream over loot...but nobody is getting hurt. You aren't going to call '911' over the entire mess, but you may begin to worry about the sanity of everyone involved.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:31 pm
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notgordian
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rowan wrote:
It's all fun and games until you're in the middle of the West Virginia wilderness, sore from hiking, sleep deprived and incredibly jumpy from a late night frightfest. So when you do hear someone screaming for help, and you do see someone getting beaten and kidnapped, your brain short circuits and all you can think about is calling 9-1-1.

Of course, the fact that you're in the middle of the wilderness without any phones prevents you from doing this, allowing you to take a moment to think about things rationally and realize it was all just a part of the show. Now pretend your somewhere where you do have a phone and you do call 9-1-1. I can't imagine any of the parties involved would be happy about that. All it takes is for one person to have one moment of panic to bring everything crashing down. The less 'real' something is, the less likely that the panic will overwhelm you. And I don't care how prepared or how in the 'game moment' you are - it can still hit you like a ton of bricks.


Off-topic, I take it the Eldritch camping trip was ridiculously amazing Very Happy

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:48 pm
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rowan
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Silent|away wrote:
In such a game where the goal is to not let on that the game is fake, I am thinking that less lethal plots are used. What about guild drama, where people just vent and scream over loot...but nobody is getting hurt. You aren't going to call '911' over the entire mess, but you may begin to worry about the sanity of everyone involved.

Maybe - but I still think it's way to easy for things to escalate out of hand if you don't know something is fake. It's way to easy even if you know something is fake.

notgordian wrote:
Off-topic, I take it the Eldritch camping trip was ridiculously amazing Very Happy

In case anyone hasn't read it, Map's novel of the adventure is an amazing read. Starts here and continues on through the next couple of pages (4 parts total). And yes, the trip was ridiculously amazing.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:13 pm
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Rekidk
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Silent|away wrote:
But maybe, I want such a game in the future, a game where you don't know if it is in fact a real event, or if it it is fake...at least until the game actually ends and the PMs admit it is all a hoax.


I completely agree with rowan. One does not respond the same to various situations in real life as they do in a game.

---

Also, there's a difference between pointing to UnFiction to help new players and bringing UnFiction into the game.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:46 pm
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rose
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vpisteve wrote:
Quote:
Let us not forget that there have been many instances of games directly linking back to the player communities who are playing them. If memory serves, The Beast, Lockjaw, Ilovebees and Last Call Poker (and maybe Art of the Heist, I can't remember) all did this. The thinking behind it from a design standpoint has been that this serves to help new players who stumble upon the sites find out what's going on, by directing them to the communities.


Also, the meta site for Perplex City, Eldritch Errors, and the recent game of Case of the Coveted Bottle all linked to unfiction. I think that linking to unfiction (and, more recently, Perplexorum) as a means of helping people find a community of players is fairly common

Silent wrote:

Quote:
Having an OOG forum where players can discuss about the game and solve puzzles sort of takes away from TINAG. It IS really a game.


I'm not sure that I follow this at all. The point of TINAG is that the characters don't recognize they are in a game like characters on a TV show or a play not acknowledging that they are, in fact, actors in a pretend world pretending to be someone esle. (although occasionally characters use "people keep acting like this is a game, but it is real")

How the players follow the game or play the game doesn't impact on TINAG at all.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:11 am
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Silent|away
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Quote:
I'm not sure that I follow this at all. The point of TINAG is that the characters don't recognize they are in a game like characters on a TV show or a play not acknowledging that they are, in fact, actors in a pretend world pretending to be someone esle. (although occasionally characters use "people keep acting like this is a game, but it is real")


But that is exactly the same policy as in books, or in video games that I play as well. All of the cutscenes show the characters beliving that the game is in fact real. What differenates the TINAG policy of ARGs from the standard policies in most other games that you play?

I assumed it was due to the fact that the players ALSO do not believe it is a game. Once the players believe that it is real, and also adopt TINAG, then it is well. But while the players, roleplaying as character, play as if the game world is real (like in countless RPGs and console games), in unforms, they behave as if the game is just that, a game. I'm okay with that limitation, I know it's hard or impossible to cross that boundary, but it just seems that it violates what TINAG is supposed to stand for.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:13 pm
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