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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC][INFO]The Princess, definitive thread
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Atoner
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Stargazer wrote:
Their is one thing that is wierd. You say the SPDR/ queen and flea are enemies. But if the Queen is a human AI only following protocol (it tries to discover why a human is atacking it, but finds no conclusin so does what she is programmed to do) that what would that make the flea?


Their is really good evidence that the flea is our courrent contsact (see the wiki) ans the flea mentions about being confused in communicating using english. Could the flea be an alien AI?

And wouldn't that logically make it an enemy, and the queen our ally?

Its just a thoguht of course, but a lot of evidence points at this theory


Of course, just because they are opposed somehow, doesn't mean they are enemies. It didn't say that the SPDR was looking for the Flea, simply that the Flea hid. Why did the Flea hide? Was it scared? Or was there some other reason we don't understand yet?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:29 pm
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ThatOtherGuy
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Quote:
And wouldn't that logically make it an enemy, and the queen our ally?


I too wonder if the pious flea is an enemy. Due to the fact that it seems to speak broken english and dosn't understand things as simple as a question mark (assuming that the flea is the one answer the questions on the hidden killer questions) I too wonder if the flea is an alien AI. The flea may be the AI sent by the Covenant to extract information from The Opperator about Earth, which would explain why the flea would want to hide from the Widow in the story. It seems so far that the flea may be connected with the sleeping princess, which, if the previous theory is correct, would prove that the SP is actually an enemy.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:31 pm
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Samari
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i don't know for sure that we can assume the Covenant are even in the picture here. we know that if it is the same Sorenson and Greene from the halo universe that this is taking place several years prior to the events we are familiar with. Considering that the Covies have no love for humans in general, they'd just as soon destroy a pleasure yatch as they would a battle ship. that makes me think that Melissa wasn't spying on the Covenant but possibly another, human enemy. That would explain why she assumes Dana is an out of uniform enemy soldier.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:12 pm
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Roc
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In any event, the entity replying to the emails mentions being more than 7 years old, which is a strict violation of what we know from the Halo information. This fairly succinctly rules out it being Melissa. and, imo at least, puts it in strong suspicion of being extra-terrestrial, and until we can communicate with it, it logically should remain considered varelse, and thereby malevolent by default.

We also know that not only did the Pious Flea hide form the SPDR, but that Melissa saw the print of the naked foot of a flea on a beach. In stating this in the MAYDAY texts, she uses a line from Robinson Crusoe, where Crusoe sees a man's footprint on the beach. In the novel, this footprint terrifies Crusoe, as he immediately figures it belongs to either natives coming to kill him, or the devil himself.

Using the novel's clues, this highly suggests that Melissa is no fan of the Flea whatsoever. It may have directly caused the catastrophe in her ship.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:25 pm
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TheBiggestSean
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optikal wrote:
Small correction - all AI's have that seven-year-limit. Cortana is the first successful(that we know of) 'smart' AI based on a human brain, and the speculation is that she might rampant faster because of her untested design.


And AI's don't fizzle out. They think themselves to the point where they can no longer effectively communicate on our level. Its almost like autism. They appear batty-cuckoo to the humans that built them, but not being able to reach their levels of processing power, the humans have no way of knowing for sure. The prevailing theory is that the AI's collapse under the weight of their own minds.



Correction. Only Smart AIs have a time limit. "Dumb AIs" have a limited amount of core processing space dedicated to "thought" and even then, their "thoughts" are incapable of being creative. They are confined purely to what they know. Only "dumb" or Function-AIs, can go 'rampant' for this reason. Rampancy is basically, in effect, a using up of its limited thinking and processing structures to the point where the bits and pieces of its sanity-processes start to become eroded. Durandal, from the Marathon stories, was technically a "dumb" AI.

Cortana is the first successful creation of a Smart AI based on a cloned human brain. Normally, the subject is already dead, but Smart AIs had been created with human brains long before Cortana was born. Her time limit is the same as every other "smart" AI, and like them, she has infinite expandable processing capabilities. Thusly, she is incapable of rampancy. Insanity... possible, but labelling a logic-based computer intelligence insane is sort of subjective on the part of a human isn't it?

She's also one of the first successful blendings of higher-level "function" AI architecture with neural-mapped "Smart" AI core porcesses.

The referrence to "Before" is definitely a hint at the fact that the Operator is a smart AI. See, the general consensus is that the dead person's brain has lost all of its memory retention capabilities and personality when the the neural-mapping procedure is preformed, but this is hardly ever the case. The brain-mapping normally carries pieces, snippets of memory and personality that actually haven't had time to erode after brain activity ceases. Since human doctors in 2552 still have no idea exactly WHY the brain works the way it does, no one ever proposed any solution to the dissemination or extraction of those 'ghost' memories.

That is what causes such anamolies in AIs such as emotion. Function AIs are rarely programmed with much of a personality. They have generalized protocols such as anger, cynicism, and compassion, but hardly ever come equipped with the complexities of emotional triggers the way humans, and indeed the 'smart' AI we spawn, do.

This is why I've discounted the likelihood that the operator and Captain Greene share a central processing architecture. Captain Greene would almost certainly have had to have been dead. While I acknowledge that it might be a "ghost" memory of that particular dialogue (the one between Captain Green and 1st Lieutenant Rolf whatever), it seems more likely that the AI you've all dubbed "Melissa" was simply monitoring their conversations.

As to the reference to an AI's mother or father, they could mean any number of things. It could mean the original human's parents, it could mean the original neural or thinking architecture of a female AI is its mother, of a male AI, it's Father, whereas the other would be the creator they most commonly identified with. Cortana would probably think of Halsey as her mother, if she were forced to concede a certain lineage, though I suspect she'd be more likely to think of Halsey as a big-sister (out of a kind of adolescent defiance).

If you're still positive of your assertions, please post books and page numbers. I'm always thrilled to be proven wrong, it means I've learned something.

PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:31 pm
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xnbomb
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[SPEC] The Princess and the Flea

Moriarty_, lilserf, and I have put together a wiki page that details some ideas we came up with to help clarify the relationship between the Princess and the Flea. It seems to be internally consistent and ties a lot of stuff together reasonably neatly.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 1:27 am
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number8
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Once again xnbomb, you have put the pieces together. You da man!! Worshippy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 2:23 am
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Noir
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Quote:
The Pious Flea is a servant to The Princess in much the same way as The Widow/SPDR is a servant to The Queen. The Flea's goal is to remain hidden, observe, and report back to the Princess. The Princess does not necessarily know the Flea as "The Pious Flea", but knows its function.

So "Seek the truth/Behold the truth/Reveal the truth" is the Flea's purpose, its credo. It seeks out and observes information, and reports it back to the Princess. This is its law, "and the whole of the law."


I'm not convinced that's the whole of the law. I think the Flea, as an inflitration-observation sub-routine, probably reports back to the Queen, as the Queen is undoubtedly the hub of Melissa's proccessing. The Flea-Princess connection is probably a hint that the two sub-routines are related functions in the greater scheme of Melissa's functions, i.e. Melissa searches and destroys, the Flea searches so the Princess must destory. To be a tad more to the point, the Flea process writes to the Princess' log files or what have you, giving it targets, updating it's mission status, perhaps even providing it access to systems.

Speculation, no doubt, but it makes little sense to me why the Queen and Princess have to be separate, and why the Queen (which amounts to Melissa's brain) would be unaware of the Flea's activity. My solution removes those problems without greatly changing the data you present.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:30 am
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Ikkarus
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Re: [SPEC] The Princess and the Flea

xnbomb wrote:
Moriarty_, lilserf, and I have put together a wiki page...


I just want to reiterate, as I said to you all in IRC, that I absolutely love this spec. The symmetry of it all just feels right.

And as a little [meta] aside, I really like the way you guys formatted your spec. Very clear, well written, and well documented. All spec should be this good.

Great job all around
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:09 am
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Andy
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Some rampant specualtion that just occured to me while reading this thread:

We can assume that Melissa's ship can intercept and decrypt Covenant communications, which is how they found out about the impending attack on Troy. Now suppose they are able to do this with the help of a captured Covenant AI, and AI which has partially escaped Melissa's control since whatever disaster it was that befell her. Suppose the Princess and/or the flea are the manifestation of this enemy AI. Or maybe even the Queen is the enemy AI, and the Princess is really the remains of Melissa...

... OK, I'll stop now.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:15 am
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Roc
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The odd thing is that the 'Truth/Law' credo in phase1 was
Quote:
Seek the Truth
Behold the Truth
Reveal the Truth
That is the Law and the whole of the Law


But in the killer.jpg, faced with the direct question of 'Perhaps you are the Pious Flea', the answer comes back:
Quote:
Seek the Truth
Behold the Truth
That is the Law and the whole of the Law


notably missing:
Quote:
Reveal the Truth


So I'm not sure that the speaker and the positor of the original credo are the same.
EDIT: additionally, I don't think the speaker through killer.jpg is going to offer any direct answers, as it's Law does not seem to include Revealing the Truth.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:18 am
Last edited by Roc on Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lutzie
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Why would they need a Covenant AI?

"Smart" AIs can easily hack into Covenant systems, and Covenant AIs are primitive versions of human AIs.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:19 am
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keybsnbits
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Roc wrote:
notably missing:
Quote:
Reveal the Truth


Could it be that the speaker does not WANT to reveal the truth yet?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:21 am
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Lysit
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Lutzie wrote:
Why would they need a Covenant AI?

"Smart" AIs can easily hack into Covenant systems, and Covenant AIs are primitive versions of human AIs.


As seen in First Strike, a Covenant AI conatins valuble infomation, such as accurate translation software. Perhaps the AI was taken so they could better understand the messages, or used the AI to decode them.

Worth a thought.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:21 am
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chumble_spuzz
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never mind.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:24 am
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