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Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion

Why a curtain?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter

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Shutaro
Decorated

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Northren California

rose wrote:

I totally agree this is a reasonable take on their attitude. But even if they don't care, I would have liked to have a more effective way to discuss what I thought about this promotion with them.

True, it's hard to tell the difference in this case (it's also possible they greatly under-estimated the size of their audience), and I haven't been following the game as closely as some (I mostly just stroll through that forum when I'm bored or I want to see if Cthulhu has posted anything new). I think that a little communication of some sort could have gone a long way toward alleviating some of the frustration I'm sensing on that particular forum (this is why I like those translucent shower curtains).

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Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:33 pm

MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Digging this back up for a moment

I'm going to resurrect this topic to chime in here...

Why the Curtain?
If you are reading a novel, do you write to the Author while you are reading a book to ask about why he used things the way he did in a certain paragraph on the first page?

If you are watching a movie for the first time, do you want to hear the Director's commentary about what was going on at the time they shot the scene?

Why not? Because they Experience is separate from the creator of the Experience. Once you involve the creator directly it is no longer the same experience. Call it the TINAG factor, call it enjoying the moment unencumbered by what your expectations are based on the storyteller.

In most games, once the final scene has played out, the people behind the curtain make their presence felt, and then you can ask questions or make comments... Trust me, PMs do read the forums for our own games, even if we can't post in our own games; it's a way to gage what is working and what is not, and if puzzles have flaws that we didn't catch before they were released. But we also want the players to focus on the Characters/Puzzles/Information, and not who is pulling the strings to the puppets.

Orbital Colony had a semi-solid curtain, as it started out as a way for people to learn about how to run a game... Even so players respected the curtain and mainly left us alone while the game was running, except for a few offers to manage some of the back end details (website security). We learned a heck of a lot on that game, what worked, what didn't, what we would do differently, what we had the most fun with, and most importantly, the time input at various stages.
*edited because my fingers like to make typos*

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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:33 am

catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Digging this back up for a moment

MageSteff wrote:

If you are reading a novel, do you write to the Author while you are reading a book to ask about why he used things the way he did in a certain paragraph on the first page?

Maybe, in a rare case. I can imagine there being a hypothetical book which is so controversial that readers drop what they are doing to contact the author. The question for this thread is whether or not the author responds, and if so, thru what channel.

MageSteff wrote:

If you are watching a movie for the first time, do you want to hear the Director's commentary about what was going on at the time they shot the scene?

Maybe, in a rare case. Most movies are passive storytelling, but experimental film might involve audience interaction with the DVD or theater. The question for this thread might be what happens when the DVD has a scene which is all black, whether you ask the manufacturer or the characters to explain or confirm, or just trust that it is supposed to be that way and let it continue to play.

MageSteff wrote:

Because they Experience is separate from the creator of the Experience. Once you involve the creator directly it is no longer the same experience. Call it the TINAG factor, call it enjoying the moment unencumbered by what your expectations are based on the storyteller.

Every case is different. I've been told earlier in this thread that an ARG is not a fixed entity, but a collaboration between storyteller and audience.

MageSteff wrote:

In most games, once the final scene has played out, the people behind the curtain make their presence felt, and then you can ask questions or make comments...

Even in movies and books, the actors and writers have already made their presence known, and in some cases are the reason the audience gathers in the first place. A good actor plus a good writer can make the character real enough that you forget who is behind it; movie reviewers often point out when, "I just couldn't stop seeing Tom Cruise himself on the screen" when that fails. In an ARG, I prefer hearing the voice of the character speak to me, even when I might have in the back of my mind, "I love the way Jim writes this guy." That is certainly easier when I have no idea who the authors are -- which is why I do prefer not knowing at all until the game ends. That illusion of voice is also why I think characters shouldn't be used to pass along meta information.

MageSteff wrote:

Trust me, PMs do read the forums for our own games, even if we can't post in our own games; it's a way to gage what is working and what is not, and if puzzles have flaws that we didn't catch before they were released.

Understood, I don't think anyone ever said that PMs were not listening. I know PMs are reading this right now and cannot respond, because of curtain issues. Players have to trust that they are being heard.

MageSteff wrote:

But we also want the players to focus on the Characters/Puzzles/Information, and not who is pulling the strings to the puppets.

I totally agree. When I engage with a character, I don't want there to be any meta-dialog going on. That doesn't mean meta-dialog isn't happening or necessary.

For example, how should a game respond to players' feedback, how quickly and how often? If players feel ignored, is that simply a matter of perception and expectations, or a communication flaw? How do the viewers know when a scene is supposed to be black?

The question is about those rare times when players and PMs ~~want~~ need to speak directly. How is that best accomplished? Respond thru the voice of a character? By shutting down the game, even temporarily? By setting up a meta site or forum? None of those options appeal to me entirely. And there probably is not one single answer, just as there is no one best definition of The Curtain. Different games have different needs, whether for anonymity or immersion.

The Curtain isn't just about hiding the identies of the PMs or pretending that this is all real. I think The Curtain protects the characters, not the players. How about this analogy: a ventriloquist doesn't hide the fact that he has his hand up the back of his dummy, but he is careful to distinguish his own voice from that of his puppet. He can speak directly to the audience before taking the dummy out of its case, or even cover the ears of the dummy and speak behind its back, but then the dummy should never acknowledge what was said. And the ventriloquist's voice should never come out of the mouth of the dummy. But at the same time, the ventriloquist doesn't treat the dummy as just a prop while on stage; the illusion is maintained that the dummy is a living being during the act (unless it's one of those avante garde postmodern acts). If a problem arises during the show, the dummy is usually returned to its suitcase for a time, and the audience is made aware of the problem.

Aren't analogies fun?

(returning later to quickly add)
Taking the analogy further, there are only rare times when the ventriloquist (shortened to V. hereon) needs to directly address the audience in a meta manner about the show itself. The rest of the time, staying in character is preferable. If the audience is just not enjoying the jokes, the V. should improvise some new dialog. If the audience cannot hear what is being said, the V. should speak louder. If the dummy breaks, the V. could apologize for the dummy's dental surgery, or the dummy could say it himself -- but neither should directly point out the broken hinge right there on stage. ~~And if the V. simply goes silent...~~ the V. should never simply go silent. Things happen, the V. could swallow a fly or something; he doesn't have to just stand there, but he also doesn't have to break character to indicate that he's having a problem. This is where we should focus the discussion of HOW to send a message in RARE cases.

and of course this is my personal lame analogy, and personal opinions, always subject to change (as anyone can see by reading back over this thread from the beginning). I have learned a lot by changing my own style of ARG-play over this past year.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:23 am

Slyfox
Unfettered

Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

Digging this back up for a moment

MageSteff wrote:

Orbital Colony had a semi-solid curtain, as it started out as a way for people to learn about how to run a game... Even so players respected the curtain and mainly left us alone while the game was running, except for a few offers to manage some of the back end details (website security). We learned a heck of a lot on that game, what worked, what didn't, what we would do differently, what we had the most fun with, and most importantly, the time input at various stages.

OC also had a meta site through which I believe players could have contacted the PM had they wished (though maybe I'm misremembering things)

BTW Hi Mage Smile

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"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:08 am

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