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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[spec] Pious Flea as a ship name....
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA
A & K wrote:
The theory that Queen is a sucessor to Princess would mean thier both human AI. The note about Pious Flea is just a point of interest that might help us later.

I think the Sleeping Princess already told us, in one of the killer.jpg pictures, that she was a successor to the Queen, not the other way around: she confirmed that the reference to her "voodoo parents" was meant to be the Queen. Their names sort of imply that as well -- a princess generally being a daughter of a queen.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:23 pm
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Burnsep
Boot

Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 10

 		Might not "Pious Flea" refer to a type of Covenant tracking bug or locator, such as was attached to the PoA? IIRC, this led the Covs to Reach.

After all, the Flea is so small that it can't be seen, and when looked for, it hides...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:31 pm
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A & K
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Shad0 wrote:
A & K wrote:
The theory that Queen is a sucessor to Princess would mean thier both human AI. The note about Pious Flea is just a point of interest that might help us later.

I think the Sleeping Princess already told us, in one of the killer.jpg pictures, that she was a successor to the Queen, not the other way around: she confirmed that the reference to her "voodoo parents" was meant to be the Queen. Their names sort of imply that as well -- a princess generally being a daughter of a queen.


But a Princess typically grows into a queen. And "Voodoo Parents" could refer to the programers who created her (Not concieving a daughter by conventional means.)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:17 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA
A & K wrote:
Shad0 wrote:
A & K wrote:
The theory that Queen is a sucessor to Princess would mean thier both human AI. The note about Pious Flea is just a point of interest that might help us later.

I think the Sleeping Princess already told us, in one of the killer.jpg pictures, that she was a successor to the Queen, not the other way around: she confirmed that the reference to her "voodoo parents" was meant to be the Queen. Their names sort of imply that as well -- a princess generally being a daughter of a queen.

But a Princess typically grows into a queen. And "Voodoo Parents" could refer to the programers who created her (Not concieving a daughter by conventional means.)

From the Wiki:

We think The Sleeping Princess wrote:
Question:

I do not understand this ordering "voodoo witch that runs smear into

the web the forte the web the forte including any enemies."

My guess is that you mean a virus or program that can infect the

internet and cause destruction. Is that correct?

Answers:

There's no way

the forte
the Castle
the Castle
the Castle

voodoo witch
the Widow
the Widow
the Widow

voodoo parents
the Queen
the Queen
the Queen

It seems pretty clear to me that "voodoo parents" means the Queen, and not the programmers. However, I think you're right about the princess growing into a queen; that's why I said I thought she was the successor to the Queen, rather than the other way around. Perhaps the Sleeping Princess is a backup or something like that?
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:28 pm
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A & K
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 		Princess is an out of data copy, hiding from queen, who is to delete her and take her place.... It would explain alot. Especially when you consider we're all lacking clues. It could be that we're lacking clues becuase we're looking at it from the wrong angle.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:35 pm
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Killer-of-Lawyers
Boot

Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Anahuac, TX

 		You know, I would imagine that the Princess, if she is of the same.. erm... blood? as the queen would kill the queen too if she had a chance. The whole queen bee's thing means there can only be one queen to a hive. Then the question becomes who to really trust, if any at all.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:42 pm
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unknowngutiarist
Kilroy

Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1
Location: atlanta, GA

 		back to the broken AI.... in the halo books cortana found an AI that could copy itself. but when it did that many times the AI became messed up, or broken. could this AI be one that was coppied and broken perhaps?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:43 pm
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Extrasonic
Decorated


Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago

 		Re: Pious Flea == allegorical name
A & K wrote:
Do we have any other designation for Flea and Princess, yet? We don't, so we can't assume they have another designation until we discover it.


I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. From the clues that we've been given, we have to assume they have another name until proven otherwise.

In the game's "real world", there is an entity nicknamed "The Operator". In a fantasy story that many agree is an allegory for "real" events, "The Operator" is called "The Queen". In the game's "real world", there is an entity/program called the "Spider", presumably as shorthand for its acronym "SPDR". In the allegory, it is referred to as "The Widow". There are three other entities referred to in the allegory - the "Manticore", "The Sleeping Princess", and "The Pious Flea".

If we apply basic logic and assume that there is a pattern of "real world" characters (e.g. The Operator, the Spider) being given other, different names in the allegory (e.g. The Queen, The Widow), then we must assume that we do not yet know the "real world" names of "The Sleeping Princess" and "The Pious Flea". There is some pretty solid speculation on the Wiki (and probably here in these forums) that the Manticore was a rogue process that the SPDR killed in the process of reviving The Operator, and therefore probably won't ever have a proper "real world" name. However, it's pretty obvious that "The Sleeping Princess" and "The Pious Flea" have "real world" names we either haven't found yet or haven't been given the chance to find by the PMs because it would reveal too much of the story too soon.

Since "The Pious Flea" is an allegorical name and all evidence presented so far indicates that "real world" literal names are different from allegorical names, it would rule out the use of "The Pious Flea" as a ship name since ships exist in the "real world" and not in the allegory.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:44 pm
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A & K
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 		Re: Pious Flea == allegorical name
Extrasonic wrote:
I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. From the clues that we've been given, we have to assume they have another name until proven otherwise.

In the game's "real world", there is an entity nicknamed "The Operator". In a fantasy story that many agree is an allegory for "real" events, "The Operator" is called "The Queen". In the game's "real world", there is an entity/program called the "Spider", presumably as shorthand for its acronym "SPDR". In the allegory, it is referred to as "The Widow". There are three other entities referred to in the allegory - the "Manticore", "The Sleeping Princess", and "The Pious Flea".

If we apply basic logic and assume that there is a pattern of "real world" characters (e.g. The Operator, the Spider) being given other, different names in the allegory (e.g. The Queen, The Widow), then we must assume that we do not yet know the "real world" names of "The Sleeping Princess" and "The Pious Flea". There is some pretty solid speculation on the Wiki (and probably here in these forums) that the Manticore was a rogue process that the SPDR killed in the process of reviving The Operator, and therefore probably won't ever have a proper "real world" name. However, it's pretty obvious that "The Sleeping Princess" and "The Pious Flea" have "real world" names we either haven't found yet or haven't been given the chance to find by the PMs because it would reveal too much of the story too soon.

Since "The Pious Flea" is an allegorical name and all evidence presented so far indicates that "real world" literal names are different from allegorical names, it would rule out the use of "The Pious Flea" as a ship name since ships exist in the "real world" and not in the allegory.


Except that in the email we got tuesday, she identified herself as The Sleeping Princess. It could be a code name, like The Operator.

killer-of-lawyers wrote:
You know, I would imagine that the Princess, if she is of the same.. erm... blood? as the queen would kill the queen too if she had a chance. The whole queen bee's thing means there can only be one queen to a hive. Then the question becomes who to really trust, if any at all.


That was going to be my next point, with all the insect references in this, we can't rule out the "Queen Bee" Theory. I'm just trying to point out that we should not assume Queen is the Older of the two Constructs.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:52 pm
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Extrasonic
Decorated


Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago

 		Re: Pious Flea == allegorical name
A & K wrote:
Except that in the email we got tuesday, she identified herself as The Sleeping Princess. It could be a code name, like The Operator.


No, no, no, no.

First problem: What you are suggesting is that even though The Operator, SPDR, and a rogue process got "renamed" The Queen, The Widow, and the Manticore for the allegorical story, it somehow makes more sense for The Pious Flea to break that pattern and have the same name inside and outside the allegory. To me, this doesn't pass the Occam's razor test (or even the common sense test) and just sounds like someone trying to force facts to fit theories insteaded of forcing theories to fit facts.

Second problem: We were sent a letter that on Tuesday by an entity using the ladybee777 account. It was marked "by The Sleeping Princess". The letter was composed using text that people had e-mailed to ladybee777. Ladybee777 hasn't sent us anything we haven't sent it first. WE are the ones who told ladybee777 about "The Sleeping Princess" and "The Pious Flea" (and Dana, for that matter) and it is the one parroting what we say back to us. There is no guarantee that the letter we received was written by the real world analogue for "The Sleeping Princess" or, even if it was, that the letter was sent by the entity that wrote it.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:07 pm
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Killer-of-Lawyers
Boot

Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Anahuac, TX

 		Re: Pious Flea == allegorical name
A & K wrote:


killer-of-lawyers wrote:
You know, I would imagine that the Princess, if she is of the same.. erm... blood? as the queen would kill the queen too if she had a chance. The whole queen bee's thing means there can only be one queen to a hive. Then the question becomes who to really trust, if any at all.


That was going to be my next point, with all the insect references in this, we can't rule out the "Queen Bee" Theory. I'm just trying to point out that we should not assume Queen is the Older of the two Constructs.


But, an even deeper question is if they are going to have to fight to the death, shoudln't we try to stop them? Afterall, the Operator has threatened to kill Dana, but its in a confused situation, trying to survive. The SP, going with the insectoid allagory, is probably not going to be too inocent eather. Then again, the SP is the only one that seems to be on our side anyway, and I doubt there'd be anything we can do. Not to mention Dana's survival comes before that of the AI's, no matter how cognative. Them or us situation.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 3:34 pm
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459

 		On the allegory bit -

The Sleeping Princess seems to be one who speaks like this. Even "Sleeping Princess" is an alternate name for "Sleeping Beauty". For whatever reasons, this entity is having troubles speaking English (I've got a theory - but would derail here).

So when we read about "The Queen" or "The Widow" or "The Pious Flea" - I think that's SP's voice. What's interesting about that though, is that the Operator occasionally slips into similar, but different usage/style. The Flea is referenced in the Mayday text and the Widow in the Operator's monologue ... but they are very flat, direct usage - not the colorful style of SP. And I don't think Melissa/Operator ever refers to herself as The Queen.

But any rate, I would agree that The Pious Flea is likely not literal. The Princess is among our more unreliable narrators and seems to be forced to speak in allegories.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:55 pm
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chaotic_mind
Unfettered


Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
Location: Inside my head, behind the eyes

 		Pious Flea IS different...
While I agree mostly with Extrasonic, that it doesn't quite follow that Pious Flea is a Covenant name for a craft of some sort, I do think we need to keep in mind several facts.

First, the Pious Flea IS fundamentally different. It is male, where the other three surviving programs are female. This could be a clue indicating that the Pious Flea is a different beast then the the others.

Further, I don't think the Widow's story was written by the Sleeping Princess. In the Aug. 3 e-mail, she tried a similar style, but continues to write in her broken English. The Widow's story was written fairly fluidly, indicating a good use of English. It could've been writted by the Operator/Melissa/Queen... but the themes seem wrong to be coming from that source. So, could the allegory be written by the Flea? In which case, being the touch point for real world and allegory, the Flea might've not assigned an allegorical name for itself.

I'm still not sure we have enough information to be solving what the Flea is, at this point. But I think these points should be kept in mind, so they can inform any future debate on this subject.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:44 pm
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JimmyJames
Boot

Joined: 05 Aug 2004
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 		What do you think about the Pious Flea being a shell or trojan, containing, at least, the Queen and the Princess? Similar to a ship in many ways.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:58 pm
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Tehrod
Boot

Joined: 03 Aug 2004
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 		*Sprays on flame retardent*

Couldn't we say that the Pious Flea is the Vessel that carried the "Holy Light" that was taken from the covenent? I know it doesn't really make much sense, but it was a ship for espionage. And somewhere on...hmm...somewhere it says that it's hard to see the flea.

-Cheers Shocked

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:44 am
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