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Puzzle Experiment #3
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Big_Larry
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Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Not there... maybe somewhere else.

Re: The Final Trial
What are you?

Omega wrote:
If you were the protagonist, would you fight or would you run?

As a writing exercise, explain in one paragraph your final actions. Do you flee to the sewers? Do you join the fight against the werewolf? Which action best defines the character you would want to be?

If you don't feel like writing a paragraph, state Fight or Flight.


Based only on the information given in the story (and having spent innumerable hours playing V:TM), here are my points of consideration:

a) I have just been sired and introduced to the Masquerade. I'm still not 100% sure of what is going on.
b) I don't know my clan. This causes me consternation.
c) I have no clue what my powers and abilities may be.
d) For that matter, I have no clue what powers the werewolf has or my sire has.
e) She is my sire. I am hers to command. She has commanded me to flee.
f) I don't know if the Storyteller is willing to fudge rolls to keep characters alive. Laughing

Eliminating point f as immaterial to the actual situation (although if this was V:TM, it most assuredly would be considered), I cannot help but conclude that my sire knows what is best for me right now, and as such I will follow her instructions to me and follow the sewer access to the next junction and wait for her.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:38 am
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Tenchizard
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 254

This is one of those times when, being familiar with a similar "world" (sorry, this is just screaming WoD out loud), I'd play along with what I would do in a tabletop RPG. And, like Big Larry up there, I'll try leaving powergaming or metagaming aside (so I won't take into account that I know how utterly dismembered would I be if I decided to leap against a werewolf if I don't even know my character sheet Razz):

And so I looked again at my so called "Sire", fighting with that enormous monster, and then looked at the bed where the passage to salvation was hidden. And fighting the unnatural hate still burning inside me, I ran towards the bed, pushing it out of the way, and got into the access. I kept on running, till I got to the promised junction, where I looked back to see...

I tend to play (maybe as an extension of tending to be myself) more cautious than adventurous roles, and if my mentor has ordered me to go, then I follow orders and go. If this was a roleplaying session (so I could have access to all this meta-knowledge about rules and systems and such), unless the GM was showing giant neon signs of "you must stay and fight", I would flee too. I don't like my characters dying on the first ten minutes... imagine all the paperwork having to create another character! Razz

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:38 am
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

The wording and writing style in the last installment, while somewhat similar to the first two, was different enough that I almost feel like there is a hidden code in there, somewhere. I had to cycle through the text several times just to pull all the pertinent story information out. It just seems like the choice of words was dictated more by some required structure for needed letters than the heavily thesaurused style of the earlier versions.

Since I can't find anything and know nothing of the game(s) the others have mentioned, I'll have to go with the "flee" option, agreeing with them purely based on the story, as presented and for the same reasons listed.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 12:16 pm
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tabster-mobile
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my response depends if fleeing a fellow vampire is considered letter her die and if that's considered 'killing her' and if so then I must stay. if not I flee with all reasons listed above

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:34 pm
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Silent|away
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I didn't exactly deal with the first two puzzles, but a moral delimma sounds interesting:

Quote:
So my master is going to go and fight this werewolf. She orders me to run away, presumably so she get killed, which will fuel me to go and fight the horrible and unnatural demon-monster known as the werewolf (even though I'm the one that drinks blood, but whatever). This is the rule: "Those you create are your own to command". So I must follow this rule.

But, she then tell me another rule: "Destroying another of your kind is forbidden". This law would trumpt every other rule, even that of loyalty.

So it all depends on if running away, making the master weak, would cause the master to be destroyed, and therefore, meaning that I destroyed the master, meaning I have learnt nothing. It also provides a distraction: The Demon-Monster would see another, very weak, vampire and seeks to kill that vampire. Therefore, I will die, but in the process, save the life of my sire-Vampire.

At the same time, she is attacking that werewolf, prehaps BECAUSE of that very unbreakable rule, if I am in fact a vampire (and assuming "kind" means vampire, instead of something else). She doesn't want me to destroyed, so she is distracting the werewolf, so that I can live. She is forced to do the same thing, to save me. So, if I throw myself to defend her, I would be violating her domain as well, as well as destroy myself, presically TO save her. That would be immoral.

On the third hand, she's my girlfriend. To let her get destroyed, to have me destroy her, that would be bad. On the fourth hand, she did turn me into a vampire in the first place, preventing me from getting any more chicks. On the fifth hand...oh forget it!

So, I must do something far convoluted, just to ensure I remain loyal to the Code. Here is what I'll do.

I'll attack my master. I do NOT want to destroy my master, but since I am weak, such a thing can not happen. Plus, she is distracted by the werewolf, so I can make a blow WITHOUT having to worry about her blowing me up as well.

Once the master is weakend, then I can run away and follow my master's order.

This has to be done because it then removes any doubt as to what could have happened. If I ran away without hitting my master, then there would be an accusation that I would have destroyed my master by not standing there and fighting. If I stayed, I would be further accused of making my master break his vows by defending my life (by leaving myself in danger and destroying myself), and that I should have ran.

By doing a third path, I ensure that the following situations would not occur. Since I hit my master, it is KNOWN that I have weakened my master. However, I'll argue that I only weakened my master, but that weakening would be easy to brush off, and that the weakening of the master, the distraction, is all I did, and all that I could do. It is known what has happened, so I cannot be accused of destroying myself or my master.

Yes, it is true that since my master is weakened, it must follow that the Werewolf would likely destroy my master. But I did not Destroy my master. I have only weakened her. Therefore, I still follow the letter of your code, and surely the spirit of the code as well, since the spirit is inherent in the letter. At the same time, after I start running for the sewers, I allow her to follow the Law as well, that is, to protect me from being destroyed myself.

In conclusion: If I stayed, I would have been destroyed directly by her actions. If I fled, she would have been destroyed directly by my actions. If I resort to huge convoluted logic in order to get around a silly code of ethics of Vampires, then nobody would have been destroyed directly.

....Please don't kill me Caine...


PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:25 pm
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England

I don't follow your logic there. You're saying that, by attacking but not killing your sire, you can't be accused of directly killing her. But by running away, and not weakening her whatsoever (and she may well have a fighting chance) you can be accused of killing her?

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 6:57 pm
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faeryqueen21
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Joined: 25 Sep 2007
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Location: Pasadena, CA

I would flee because of the reason most other people said: she told me to and I have to listen to my master!
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:00 pm
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Silent|away
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Quote:
I don't follow your logic there. You're saying that, by attacking but not killing your sire, you can't be accused of directly killing her. But by running away, and not weakening her whatsoever (and she may well have a fighting chance) you can be accused of killing her?


It is because if I ran away, there would be the question of what would I have done if I have stayed in the same area. Any person could state that, if I ran away, and she died/get destroyed, then I should have at least done something, to try and ensure that she did not get destroyed. I could have sacrificed my life, and therefore, prevented that vampire from being destroyed. Since I did not do that, it could be said that I destroyed her, by inaction.

It is true that she has a fighting chance, and that she could in fact win the battle against the werewolf. But there is also the possiblity she may lose if I ran, and I want to stay moral 100% of the time.

By doing something (which is attacking my sire), I can avoid any question about what would happen if I, in fact, would have stayed there intsead of running away. It would be obivous that I would have attacked my sire. Then, after attacking the sire, which would indicate what I have done and removing all doubt of my intention, I would run away.

I think. I'm going to try and ask others around to see if I can phrase it correctly.

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 8:14 pm
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Omega
Unfettered


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 430
Location: Utah

The Quoting Contest
Puzzle Experiment Follow-Up

Let's see how many people I can quote in one extra-long post...

catherwood wrote:
If we're judging the presentation in terms of ARGs, I think the puzzle needs to evolve from the story and depend on details that can only be gleaned from the world where it occurs.

rowan wrote:
Just because you give me a reason for a puzzle does not mean that the puzzle itself has an actual reason to exist. [...] To me, the idea of a 'set of trials' to test my wisdom/intelligence is basically just an excuse to throw in a puzzle trail. [...] I guess what I'm trying to say is that I keep feeling like PMs are pushing puzzle driven stories along, rather than stories that just happen to have puzzles in them.

danteIL wrote:
This one feels like the mentor-vampire (awkward term, I know) simply pulled it off her shelf o' codes. It was motivated as an 'intelligence test' so there was an in-game/story reason for the code, but the code itself wasn't particularly story-related.

catherwood, rowan, and dante all get special cookies for providing the lesson of the week. Creating puzzles that appear naturally within and depend upon the context of a story has become one of my primary goals with these experiments, something which I will continue to wrestle with. In the perfect world, I would like to reach a point in my creation skills where puzzle and story blend seamlessly, to the point where puzzles aren't even recognized until they're overcome. Anything pushing me in that direction is a good thing.

To clarify on an issue that catherwood and rowan brought up, the Puzzle Experiments are meant to mimic ARG conditions. If the experiments feel more like a puzzle trail and less like part of an ARG, then call me on it. Thanks to cathy and rowan for noticing this.


Rogi Ocnorb wrote:
I get the feeling that there was supposed to be some kind of methodology to the construction that we bypassed and am eager to hear what that was.

There was, actually. You guys (and gals) solved the first puzzle way, way faster than I was expecting. I did a face-palm when I saw how easily it was cracked...

As probably everyone noticed (except me), the message in the first puzzle wasn't even needed to solve. "The mind cycles on ten roads of which only a fourth are used." This quote was meant to be a key into deciphering the numeric value of each of the symbols. The idea was that "cycles on ten roads" meant that ten "roads" equals a "cycle," and thus each "cycle" had a value of 10 while each "road" had a value of 1. A "cycle," in this case, was referring to the image of a circle, and a "road" was referring to the stroke of a line, as if you were drawing it with a pencil.

If you look back at the starting puzzle, the first symbol with the four circles, for example, has a value of 10. Since each circle is considered to be a value of 10, the symbol has an initial value of 40, but, from the message, "of which only a fourth are used" reduces the value to 10. The second symbol, with the diamond and the circle in the middle, utilizes 1 circle and 6 "roads" (aka lines, or edges), giving an initial value of 16; take a fourth of that and you get 4. In total, the first two symbols produce the value 14 -- the fourteenth letter of the alphanet is N. The next symbol, with the two circles, has an initial value of 20; fourth of that is 5 -- fifth letter of the alphabet is E. And so on... I honestly never even considered a more direct substitution method; puzzle faux pas there.

Later in the story, I identify the symbols as clan emblems. The night before I released the first part, I was looking everything over and thought, "Why would all the clans have symbols that work out nicely with some bizarre mathematical message that I pulled out of my arse?" I was going to change a couple things to fix that, but it was late and I was tired, so I said, "Ah hell, it'll add mystery!" and kept it. But, the cycles and roads bit was never picked up on. Puzzle faux pas x2 !!


Big_Larry wrote:
Based only on the information given in the story (and having spent innumerable hours playing V:TM), here are my points of consideration:

Tenchizard wrote:
This is one of those times when, being familiar with a similar "world" (sorry, this is just screaming WoD out loud), I'd play along with what I would do in a tabletop RPG. [...] Unless the GM was showing giant neon signs of "you must stay and fight", I would flee too.

I will make no self-indulgent claims here: this week's Puzzle Experiment is indeed inspired by V:TM. In fact, I had the core rulebook at my side through every step of the story when I was writing it. Please do _not_ give me credit for the world design! If White Wolf caught wind of that, they'd have to throw things at me, and I like not having things thrown at me, unless it's something edible.

tabster-mobile wrote:
my response depends if fleeing a fellow vampire is considered letter her die and if that's considered 'killing her' and if so then I must stay. if not I flee with all reasons listed above

Silent|away wrote:
But, she then tell me another rule: "Destroying another of your kind is forbidden". This law would trumpt every other rule, even that of loyalty. So it all depends on if running away, making the master weak, would cause the master to be destroyed

In Vampire: The Masquerade, the traditions (these were the non-formal versions of the laws that the mentor gave to the protagonist) are always up for interpretation. One clan may see the wording in a different manner than another. In this case, "Destroying another of your kind is forbidden" can be seen as having direct and indirect implications. As tabster and Silent point out, leaving the sire to her death could be viewed as a fault on the childe's part.

I, personally, would flee. Big_Larry pretty much covered all the reasons why. Because the protagonist is the sire's to do with as she pleases, he better do what she says, if he knows what's good for him.


Rogi Ocnorb wrote:
It just seems like the choice of words was dictated more by some required structure for needed letters than the heavily thesaurused style of the earlier versions.

Thesaurused. Hehe ~ Yeah, that's an element of my writing that I've picked up through practice and in part by habit. Helps me to think of different ways of saying the same thing, which I use as a craft tool for adding variety and texture to my writing. Sometimes I get carried away with the synonyms. To put your mind at rest, Rogi, there is no hidden message in the third installment.... Or is there??? Wink

By the way, I appreciate everyone's kind words on the story element of this week's puzzle. It was certainly an interesting writing experiment for me. Glad to hear some of you enjoyed it! Smile

faeryqueen21 wrote:
The puzzles make me want to gouge my own eyes out, but I would definitely stick around for the story.

Sorry about your eyes, queen. Rolling Eyes Smile



*cues sad violin music*

Every week I am more and more amazed and humbled by the amount of meaningful criticism and feedback that I get from the community. For that matter, I've noticed a rather tremendous level of support that exists across most of the forums. I truly don't know how so many encouraging and insightful people came to co-exist in one location...

Here, I feel at home.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:43 am
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

To your last point. That's something that I'm in constant amazement over, as well. That a community consisting of so many intelligent people can exist with such little animosity and moderation/intervention is something of an enigma to me. I think one of the main reasons is that this is a place where you never know what kind of a mousetrap you'll find yourself in and quickly learn that you don't know half as much as you thought you did, you're not in Kansas, anymore and we all need each other. I can't begin to catalog the amount of information I've learned since coming here.

As for the complexity of the puzzles... This area of the forums is not so highly trafficked. The puzzles in this last one were, in retrospect, types that would have been solvable even without the faux pas and hints by a decent sized player base were they to appear in the more active areas. I know I did a few forehead slaps.

I think your writing style would help to ensure a fairly good turnout. It's actually an interesting style to read (when you're not trying to suss out puzzly details). I appreciate your ability to write that way mainly because I can't. While you can turn it down a notch, I couldn't hope to write that way without spending endless hours stressing over every word and ultimately ruining it, anyway. If I knew the story part was ALL story only, I could relax a little and let the simile wash over me. Maybe just do a quick spin in the dryer so it's not dripping (making sure not to use the "fluff" cycle Wink ).

And lastly, I also applaud your considerations and acceptance of critical analysis.
We get a lot of new folks who start something like this not so much for the noble reasons they imply they're going for as they are doing it to show how smart they are. Those people don't hang around very long. So, you may have seen some snarkieness, earlier on which is dissipating as you show you're not in it just for a quick ego-stroking. You're getting a good lay of the land in a very short time. And I think a lot of people are watching the interaction and learning how to build a better game. Always a good thing.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:42 am
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rowan
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966

Re: The Quoting Contest
Puzzle Experiment Follow-Up

Omega wrote:
To clarify on an issue that catherwood and rowan brought up, the Puzzle Experiments are meant to mimic ARG conditions. If the experiments feel more like a puzzle trail and less like part of an ARG, then call me on it. Thanks to cathy and rowan for noticing this.


Well on that note... Wink

I think my biggest problem with this puzzle is that I can't understand the mechanics of how this would fit into an ARG. I understand the actual puzzles just fine, and I don't see any obvious flaws in them. Well, except maybe trying to add too many design layers into them. I've found people will go for easier solutions (simple sub) first rather than trying to figure out little fiddley bits that were introduced.

My question is: how would you have this play out in an actual ARG? Was this supposed to be a blog to be read? But then why would we be answering the puzzles for the new vampire since it feels like its supposed to be happening now (and not like a take home quiz). And why would we be deciding if he stayed or ran? Did he twitter a whole bunch of people hoping for some advice?

To me, this feels more like an RPG than it does an ARG since the way the puzzle is presented, it feels like I'm supposed to be the newly created vampire, rather than the new guy just being someone I'm supposed to help. While I could see something like this playing out via a live mission (players finding easy puzzles that have a time limit and then having to make a choice about staying or fleeing), I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where I as a player on the web would be providing these answers in order to help someone.

Did you have an actual ARG mechanic in mind when you wrote this (and if so, what)? Or did the story and the puzzle take over since you didn't have anything to integrate it into?
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:29 am
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Omega
Unfettered


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 430
Location: Utah

Re: The Quoting Contest
Puzzle Experiment Follow-Up

rowan wrote:
To me, this feels more like an RPG than it does an ARG since the way the puzzle is presented, it feels like I'm supposed to be the newly created vampire, rather than the new guy just being someone I'm supposed to help.

Yes, the players as a collective were supposed to be the vampire. That was the intent for this puzzle, to position the players as an active, in-game participant rather than an external supportive one. From what I've noticed, in a typical ARG, the players usually supply information for the characters to act upon. I wanted to examine the reverse, where players act and characters supply. One way I thought of doing that using minimal resources was through a first-person story where it's possible for me to take players any which way the imagination roams. Although, the player action part didn't really come into play until the final trial (I was still struggling with the concept)... Anyway, The Landlord ARG that recently started is actually exploring that altered player role, but in a much more clever and interesting manner than what I was thinking of. If you haven't already, take a look at that ARG and you'll see what I mean.
rowan wrote:
Did you have an actual ARG mechanic in mind when you wrote this (and if so, what)? Or did the story and the puzzle take over since you didn't have anything to integrate it into?

To restate from above, the story device I was working off of was role reversal. However, it was exactly as you say, rowan: the story and the puzzles started to overrun things because of integration troubles. Things kind of turned more into a dip into the unknown rather than a build off of an established ARG mechanic. In the end, I churned out an okay bit of story, but delivered poor puzzles and a severely lacking amount of player interaction. I've learned that, in an ARG, story just isn't enough!
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:08 am
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rowan
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Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 1966

Re: The Quoting Contest
Puzzle Experiment Follow-Up

Omega wrote:
Anyway, The Landlord ARG that recently started is actually exploring that altered player role, but in a much more clever and interesting manner than what I was thinking of. If you haven't already, take a look at that ARG and you'll see what I mean.
Except that I would never call that an ARG. Multiplayer choose-your-own adventure/interactive fiction yeah, but not an ARG. Of course, this gets into the whole semantics of what an ARG is defined as, but if given the choice, I'd be willing to bet that more people would lump it with CYOA/IF than with ARGs.

It's late so I'm not gonna get into the problems I could see arising from a type of game like this. As long as the game stays small, it's fine - but it certainly wouldn't scale well if the player population jumped. And you'd have to make sure that the type of game was well documented from the first player interaction. I would think players would be disappointed if they got sucked into a game only to find it abruptly shifted to a more IF and/or RPG game than what they were expecting.
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:27 am
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Omega
Unfettered


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 430
Location: Utah

Re: The Quoting Contest
Puzzle Experiment Follow-Up

rowan wrote:
Except that I would never call that an ARG. Multiplayer choose-your-own adventure/interactive fiction yeah, but not an ARG.

Isn't that what an ARG is, though? Interactive (i.e. chaotic) fiction? An ARG is certainly multiplayer, and in many ARGs the player's actions can decide or alter the course of events--the players are still choosing the adventure, in a way. What ultimately distinguishes CYOA/IF from ARG?
rowan wrote:
It's late so I'm not gonna get into the problems I could see arising from a type of game like this. As long as the game stays small, it's fine - but it certainly wouldn't scale well if the player population jumped.

When you get a moment, rowan, I'd be interested to hear what you (and others in the community) have to say about that sort of gameplay and the particular problems you see arising, because I still see The Landlord as a viable form of ARG. Am I not seeing a key distinction? (I appreciate your input, btw. Smile)
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:57 am
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Silent|away
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Quote:
Isn't that what an ARG is, though? Interactive (i.e. chaotic) fiction? An ARG is certainly multiplayer, and in many ARGs the player's actions can decide or alter the course of events--the players are still choosing the adventure, in a way. What ultimately distinguishes CYOA/IF from ARG?


TINAG.

Or, in other words, compare the following examples. I am walking down a street. Then, a random man comes and run up to me. I ask the man: "Why are you running up to me?" The man replies:

Example 1:
Quote:
"Evil Conspirayc #560 is planning to cut my wages by 1%! 1%! You are the only person I can trust in order to wreck revenge! Help me! Help me!"

Plasubility Rating: 2/10.
Response: "Uh...sure?"

Example 2:
Quote:
Random Guy: The last you remember is laying down to go to bed the previous night. Eight hours of restful sleep, and you're ready to embrace the day.
Me: No I didn't. I had a peaceful sleep, you kn--
Random Guy: But this isn't your bed, or your room.
Me: Of course this isn't! This is a busy crosswalk where I am going to attend an important bussiness meeting and---
Random Guy: You lay atop an old four-poster bed, the comforter and sheets neatly tucked in around you. Your eyes take --
Me: Get out of here!

Plasubility Rating: 0/10.

Do you honestly think that The Landlord is in fact NOT A GAME? Is it that common for people to talk in the second person?

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:57 am
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