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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Puzzles
[LOCKED] [PUZZLE] AXONS GO HOT - Coordinates
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sherpa
Unfettered


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 338
Location: cam.ac.uk
Quote:

I'm also from the area. I have been unable to find anything of consequence at these points (running off my car's gps.) My best guess is that we are either missing the point of this puzzle, or the locs don't have anything there YET.


If they don't have anything yet, implying they will have something, how will that something be put there under our immense scrutiny? Why wasn't it there already when the numbers were given to us?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:56 am
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sfsdfd
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 112
logjones wrote:
Even if similarities between the locations cropped up, I don't see how a solution like that to this puzzle would then take us further on in the game.

Unless this is just solving a puzzle for solving a puzzle's sake - which doesn't seem very rewarding.

Heh... you must be new to the ARG thing.

Many of the puzzles from AI were just that - the puzzle led to a word, often a password. And it often took one hell of a lot of effort to get there:
  • One puzzle required building an elaborate island model out of clay, based on an elevation map that the PMs gave us. The purpose: If you looked at it from the side, you could see a word spelled out in the clay. No purpose other than that. - And this puzzle didn't even work right; it was very difficult to build the model so that the word was visible.
  • Another puzzle required a distributed, brute-force attack on a login web page. Someone (a regular game player, not a PM) constructed a SETI@Home-like software client so that a whole lot of people could brute-force test the puzzle at the same time.
  • Yet another puzzle required listening to a dripping sound that accompanied a picture of a faucet, realizing that the drips comprised morse code, and transcribing them. But we just got garbage out of them, until we realized that the message must have been encoded; and based on another piece of text, we realized that it was encoded with - get this - the World War II enigma machine scheme. So we had to download Enigma machine simulators, and that required even another password (which we just had to guess.)
  • Several puzzles required looking at pictures or webpages, identifying themes and groups, and putting them in proper order to generate a phrase.
My point is simply that many puzzles do exist that lead only to a meaningless piece of data, which we use to unlock something much more interesting. So what's the point? The puzzles are fun group-think experiences, and they're often wonderfully complex and multilayered. And, the payoff once we solve it is usually very good.

- David Stein

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:12 am
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    sfsdfd
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    Joined: 25 Jul 2004
    Posts: 112
    sherpa wrote:
    If they don't have anything yet, implying they will have something, how will that something be put there under our immense scrutiny?

    The better question is: Why would they pick some locations that we can't scrutinize at all? All four spots in Cleveland are on private property - and at least two are so far into private property that I couldn't really get anywhere near them. Nor could the PMs without trespassing.

    So I continue to stick by my beliefs that:
    • The locations are interesting because of some identifying feature (tree, pond, field, landmark, library, etc.), since GPS coordinatees this specific seem to beg us to visit them en masse;
    • Those items are there now (since it would be a big PM mistake to release those coordinates before they are interesting in any way);
    • The data, once generated, will lead to grouping of locations that eventually solve the puzzle; and
    • The only way to get this data, reliably, is to visit each location and scout it out - maybe from a safe distance.


    To me, this just feels like the only logical mechanics of the puzzle - based on the likely end goal, and the PM's style in this game and in AI.

    - David Stein

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:19 am
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    sherpa
    Unfettered


    Joined: 10 Aug 2004
    Posts: 338
    Location: cam.ac.uk
    sfsdfd wrote:

    The better question is: Why would they pick some locations that we can't scrutinize at all? All four spots in Cleveland are on private property - and at least two are so far into private property that I couldn't really get anywhere near them. Nor could the PMs without trespassing.

    sfsdfd wrote:


    • The only way to get this data, reliably, is to visit each location and scout it out - maybe from a safe distance.


    To me, this just feels like the only logical mechanics of the puzzle - based on the likely end goal, and the PM's style in this game and in AI.


    I feel the two statements there are somewhat in conflict. The locations are private property so visiting them tells you very little that you couldn't work out from online sources (maps, aerial photos, etc) -- and other visits to sites have also proved to yield little use. However, some of them have been enlightening (for example, showing that certain addresses don't exist).

    At any rate, despite this being a rather... Beast-style solution -- I once took part in a MS intern game which involved dashing around to various locations in WA and solving puzzles at them -- I don't think it really fits with the Story So Far, and the setting. It's a bit forced to say that Melissa visited all the places, or that bits of the crashed spaceship landed at them (without any actual evidence at the sites) or even that they are modern-day geocaches.

    One of the hints we have is "Connect" (from the .wav files). Another is "axons", connecting lines. Am I the only one who sees these as relevant?

    Edit to add:

    BTW, the above isn't meant to be criticism, more a reflection on how I'm approaching this puzzle. However, one thing I'm increasingly sure of is that we (as a group) are spending too much time arguing theories for the puzzle and too little time actually acting on our gut feelings - grouping locations, assembling photo montages, triangulating numbers, etc. Smile
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:43 am
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    babbler
    Boot

    Joined: 02 Aug 2004
    Posts: 48
    sfsdfd wrote:
    I, being (apparently) the sole member of the Cleveland beekeepers branch, visited all four spots tonight. Conclusion: Two point to ponds, one might point to a tree, and one appears to be within a clump of woods. All four are clearly on private property, making them difficult to pinpoint, and impossible to search for geocaches.


    This suggests that the "all points land on streets" theory is inoperable.
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:41 am
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    eMouse
    Decorated

    Joined: 25 Jul 2004
    Posts: 179

         		Axons... Axons take impulses away from the brain and spinal cord. So they have to come from some sort of origin, right?

    Perhaps these are all the end points of the axons that Melissa is growing. So where are they growing from?

    What is the median or central point for all of these locations together?

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:57 am
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    WhiteGulls
    Unfettered


    Joined: 08 Aug 2004
    Posts: 331
    Location: Portland
    sherpa wrote:


    One of the hints we have is "Connect" (from the .wav files). Another is "axons", connecting lines. Am I the only one who sees these as relevant?


    So, maybe once we visit all, or a majority of, the locations, we could group them, and map them out by group, and then connect-the-dots? See if there's any sort of a hidden message. Could be something like a word scramble, if that's the case. Anyways, looking at the GPS lists right now, we don't seem to have very much there. But, there are some things we can get from it:

    -Game Stores
    -Trees
    -Ponds
    -Stores in General
    -Pay-phones/phonebooths

    So, maybe it's a hidden message thing, from each of the catagories?
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:00 am
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    babbler
    Boot

    Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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    eMouse wrote:
    Axons... Axons take impulses away from the brain and spinal cord. So they have to come from some sort of origin, right?

    Perhaps these are all the end points of the axons that Melissa is growing. So where are they growing from?

    What is the median or central point for all of these locations together?


    Well, my working assumption is either the lat/long for the address given in the WHOIS for iLB, or else the lat/long point used by Dana in her blog entry.

    Unfortunately, the code I wrote for determining the distance between two points is returning slightly different results than the webpage she linked to (I may need to change the precision of the sphere's circumference that I'm using), so, if we want to test distance from points as meaningful data, we may need to use the Indo webpage.
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:05 am
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    Anonymous Coward
    Boot

    Joined: 25 Jul 2004
    Posts: 39
    babbler wrote:
    Unfortunately, the code I wrote for determining the distance between two points is returning slightly different results than the webpage she linked to (I may need to change the precision of the sphere's circumference that I'm using), so, if we want to test distance from points as meaningful data, we may need to use the Indo webpage.

    Usefully, there's a link on the Indo page to the software it actually uses to calculate the distances on that site.

    Unfortunately, the USGS FTP site appears to be down (or at least it was yesterday) - so I found the current home of the PROJ software. The 'geod' command line thing is what you'll need. Smile

    I found the coordinates of the ILB Whois address, too - 37.76286N, 122.43451W - in case anyone needs them.

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:15 am
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    peeveen1
    Boot

    Joined: 28 Jul 2004
    Posts: 51
    Quote:
    What is the median or central point for all of these locations together?


    I believe the central point is nigh-on impossible to calculate, since the points taken together do not actually constitute a valid "region". They're all over the place, and any attempt to join them into a single continuous non-overlapping line will be highly subjective. The order of the points listed on the site is no use. Nevertheless, I fed the numbers into an algorithm, treating them as a clockwise-ordered set of polygon points. The centroid came back as somewhere in the North Pacific. (?)

    The average of all coordinates indicates somewhere in Kansas, unsurprisingly. Looks like the middle of nowhere though. It's (39.0768, -99.3345) if you want to see.

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:29 am
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    Victor
    Guest


         		I'm a noob at this, so trout me if you must, but after reading all 36 pages I haven't seen anyone mention reading down each of the the two coloumns. Like 2 seperate connect the dot grids possibly? What about finding the origin of the ILB server and see if one of the points matches up. Then follow the leader from there. Any feedback??

    my $.02

    Victor

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:39 am
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    krystyn
    I Never Tire of My Own Voice


    Joined: 26 Sep 2002
    Posts: 3651
    Location: Is not Chicago

         		AndyA and I were looking in the forums and wiki, but honestly, I am not sure I have seen this yet:

    Has anyone taken all 220 coordinates and radiated them out from the Queen's apparent home base in SF? I am truly poking around to see if this has been done, but I am not finding it.

    There is another way to do this - take the first column of 110, radiate them out from SF, THEN connect the second column to the first sets (respectively, according to the 'pairs' we see from the webpage) ...

    I currently have no way of generating this on a map. Many apologies.

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:44 am
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    babbler
    Boot

    Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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    Anonymous Coward wrote:

    Usefully, there's a link on the Indo page to the software it actually uses to calculate the distances on that site.


    As my baseball team's manager used to say, way to good eye, Anon! The new PROJ.4 homepage is here. I'll try and do some revised calcs with geod this afternoon.
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    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:54 am
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    sfsdfd
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    Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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    sherpa wrote:
    The locations are private property so visiting them tells you very little that you couldn't work out from online sources (maps, aerial photos, etc) -- and other visits to sites have also proved to yield little use. However, some of them have been enlightening (for example, showing that certain addresses don't exist).

    It's true that not all of them are inaccessible - you can't stand on the coordinate spot without trespassing. But they have been at least viewable - at least, one can see what's there. And I think that's how it's supposed to work.

    Consider: At least in Cleveland, the spots are paired, and very close to each other. Even more curiously, the closer pair is about 45 minutes from downtown, and the more distant pair another 20 minutes.

    To me, this speaks volumes: it's clear that someone hand-picked these spots by driving around the region, looking for stuff - maybe they live there. Would it really be that hard to find a Microsoft associate living in these major cities, and mail them a GPS device and some instructions? "Please identify four GPS locations: two that map to bodies of water, and two that map to trees." The PMs have previously gone to greater lengths than this to bring the game into the real world (e.g., the ARM rally from Evan Chan.)
    sherpa wrote:
    BTW, the above isn't meant to be criticism, more a reflection on how I'm approaching this puzzle.

    Laughing No sweat. I'm an attorney - my feelings don't bruise easily. - And I didn't get a hint of criticism in your entire post, anyway.

    - David Stein

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:11 am
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    Mukaikubo
    Boot

    Joined: 28 Jul 2004
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         		To avoid duplication of effort:

    Using MATLAB I drew two pictures. One connects (Row1 Column 1) to (Row2 Column 1) to (Row 3 Column 1) on to (Row 110 Column 1). And the same for Column 2. The result is two meaningless images that aren't even worth the trouble of posting here.

    PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:21 am
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