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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[QUESTIONS] Awareness Between Entities
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GunsmithCat
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 		[QUESTIONS] Awareness Between Entities
This came up on the "Piggyback" thread.

It's interesting to note if one entity is aware of the others, and what that might say about their nature/origins.

For instance

Melissa: Can see and interact with the SPDR. May not be aware of the flea directly. Doesn't seem aware of Princess. Aware of Dana, maybe not Margaret, etc. Doesn't seem aware of us.

SPDR: Interacts with Melissa. Interacts with the Flea (but can't catch it). Seems unaware of the Princess. No sign is aware of "human" characters. Doesn't seem aware of us.

Flea: definitely aware of both Melissa and SPDR, seem unaware of Princess. Also doesn't seem aware of us or "human" characters.

Princess: Completely aware of us, of all the other entities, and of all the in game characters.




Some fit pretty easy. SPDR and Flea seem to be somewhat limited AIs, so they would be focused on each other and Melissa. Melissa became aware of Dana because she tried to kill her, but hasn't needed to "look" for anyone else.


What makes Princess so darn omniscient though?

So, no real spec here - just questions to maybe get to one.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:23 pm
Last edited by GunsmithCat on Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wandering_Angela
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 		I would have to guess that the Princess is some kind of alien AI. Someone mentioned Forerunner technology on one of the threads, in regards to the mystery cylinder that showed up in Melissa's memory. Maybe that artifact contains the Princess.

I don't know anything about the Halo universe beyond what we've gotten in game, so I might be completely off base here. But if Princess an alien AI it would explain why she's so smart and aware of everyone. Also, it would explain why she had to learn to speak English from the players, instead of just knowing how (as Melissa appeared to).

And I expect Melissa would be just as aware if she weren't damaged. Right now getting fixed and completing her mission is what matters to her. She doesn't have time to worry about reading other people's email. Smile

Just some specs from a relative newbie.

~A

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:49 pm
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Nova
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 		I still say the most interesting interaction is that of the Flea and Melissa. She seems to be listening to the Flea without being directly aware of it.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:51 pm
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nil
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 		[SPEC]
from the last update (Melissa text):
Quote:
Shipwrecked sailor. (The young stage of a bee found him, the clever one, adrift on a wine-dark sea, but I can't remember her name.)



Sounds to me like Melissa might be talking about the Sleeping Princess here: a princess is the 'young stage' of a queen (bee?), and we all seem to agree that the Princess is reasonably smart...so maybe Melissa once knew about the Princess but the memories have been erased?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:18 pm
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GunsmithCat
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Nova wrote:
I still say the most interesting interaction is that of the Flea and Melissa. She seems to be listening to the Flea without being directly aware of it.


Probably explained by the Flea posing as the SPDR. She doesn't know who she is really talking to.

Quote:
Sounds to me like Melissa might be talking about the Sleeping Princess here: a princess is the 'young stage' of a queen (bee?), and we all seem to agree that the Princess is reasonably smart...so maybe Melissa once knew about the Princess but the memories have been erased?


Interesting, and a solid connection. The Shipwrecked sailor possibly refers to the Castaway?

Does this hint towards the theory that Princess is a "younger" version of Queen/Melissa ... like a 3 month old backup or something? Maybe whenever Melissa had coffee with the Castaway? She can't remember her name because she's not make the connection that it's herself?

Maybe Princess is omniscient merely through casuality. Assuming she was a backed up version on the ship before Flea came aboard. She would be latent, but perhaps still observant. Perhaps "sealed away" refers to somehow being safe from the rest of the ship.

So she witnesses Melissa's first breakdown, recognizes the Flea. She knows the SPDR because that's part of the functioning. She sees Dana at the exact same time Melissa does, it seems - so even latent, does she have the ability to see "through" Melissa? She then learns of us and Margaret by hacking in to hotmail. (?)

Does this make sense in reference to the cryopod suggestions we've been getting?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:45 am
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Dorkmaster
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 		Gunsmith, do we really need to cross-thread this? Laughing Just kidding.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:04 pm
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GunsmithCat
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 		I have a horrible feeling this is gonna cross threads with lots of things Smile

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:03 pm
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Dorkmaster
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 		I hear ya... I think, (and it's just a gut feeling,) that this is just about getting to the point where all the puzzles will become interrelated, and we're going to need past and current info to move forward. And the thought of how long it must have taken to plan this thing is staggering.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:06 pm
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Wandering_Angela
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 		Revising my Sleeping Princess theory a bit... I'm now leaning toward the artifact being what sent Melissa and all back to our time, rather than containing the Princess.

So, the Princess... I don't think she's a backup of Melissa (in the sense of an older copy) because her voice is so different than Melissa's. She seems to have a very distinct personality.

I would speculate instead that she's a backup for Melissa. Meaning that she's another AI contained on the ship, there to take over if Melissa is destroyed.

Perhaps after the crash Princess was partially activated, but then SPDR discovered that Melissa was still somewhat functional and decided to repair her instead. That left Princess 'awake' but not in control. So she had to find her own ways to perceive and communicate.

~A

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:02 pm
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Nova
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GunsmithCat wrote:
Nova wrote:
I still say the most interesting interaction is that of the Flea and Melissa. She seems to be listening to the Flea without being directly aware of it.


Probably explained by the Flea posing as the SPDR. She doesn't know who she is really talking to.



No, I don't think that explains it at all.

From what I can gather, looking at the various monologues, it seems as if Melissa is saying 'What a pain in the ass that spider is' while at the same time growing more and more attached to 'the law', and 'seek evade...' etc. (I think it's important to note there's two versions of that - escape, and resist)

I think the Flea's posing as the SPDR was just a mechanism to get the real SPDR deleted. Its method of communication with Melissa is (IMO) more insidious than that. It seems as if it's planting ideas in her head without her realising it - so that when these ideas appear inside her mind, Melissa assumes she thought of them, rather than them being put there by another entity.

The most sensible way to get an AI to do something while minimising risk to yourself is to make the AI think that it thought of the idea itself, don't you think?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:38 pm
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GunsmithCat
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Wandering_Angela wrote:
Revising my Sleeping Princess theory a bit... I'm now leaning toward the artifact being what sent Melissa and all back to our time, rather than containing the Princess.

So, the Princess... I don't think she's a backup of Melissa (in the sense of an older copy) because her voice is so different than Melissa's. She seems to have a very distinct personality.

I would speculate instead that she's a backup for Melissa. Meaning that she's another AI contained on the ship, there to take over if Melissa is destroyed.



More cross threading! Smile We're also discussing Princess's age over here I'll agree that Princess being an unrelated AI to Melissa makes sense, we have some clues that they might be related. More importantly I started to speculate in that thread that perhaps to a smart AI, "age" is more or less synonymous with "function".

Nova wrote:

I think the Flea's posing as the SPDR was just a mechanism to get the real SPDR deleted. Its method of communication with Melissa is (IMO) more insidious than that. It seems as if it's planting ideas in her head without her realising it - so that when these ideas appear inside her mind, Melissa assumes she thought of them, rather than them being put there by another entity.


Ah yes, I see what you are saying. There is some function of the Flea to ability to pervert Melissa's thinking without her realizing something is there perverting it.

Is there a similarity to insanity here? She realizes it -at first- (the whole feeling of "nothing has been robbed, but items have been moved"). But now seems completely oblivious.

And since she's oblivious when she's re-awakened when she's on ILB - that would indicate she was still infected (?)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:13 pm
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clamatius
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Quote:
Is there a similarity to insanity here? She realizes it -at first- (the whole feeling of "nothing has been robbed, but items have been moved"). But now seems completely oblivious.

And since she's oblivious when she's re-awakened when she's on ILB - that would indicate she was still infected (?)


Not sure it's insanity per se - remember she wasn't damaged when she was aware of the infection. Between Dana, the Spider and the Flea, it's a minor miracle the old gal's got anything left.

I concur with Nova's assessment. The Flea is rewriting Melissa's goals to become its own as well as fishing through her memories. The progression from minor mentions in Phase 1 to obsession in Phase 3 is very apparent. By Phase 3, the "law" ("seek evade reveal escape") is "her very being" and an "urgent necessity".
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:36 pm
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floorneyne
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 		Re: [QUESTIONS] Awareness Between Entities
GunsmithCat wrote:
Melissa: Can see and interact with the SPDR. May not be aware of the flea directly. Doesn't seem aware of Princess. Aware of Dana, maybe not Margaret, etc. Doesn't seem aware of us.


Let's not forget this quote from the Mayday text...

Quote:
It happened one day, about noon, going towards my boat, I was exceedingly surprised with the print of a flea's naked foot on the shore, which was very plain to be seen on the sand.


She knows that the flea is there, though I'll agree that she might not be aware that it is the entity that is repairing her now that she deleted SPDR.

Everyone seems to assume that the flea is a bad guy, and I don't really trust him... but there really isn't information that would lead us to believe that he isn't helping Melissa. If there is, I'd love to see it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:39 pm
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clamatius
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 		Rather than saying "she knows that the flea is there", I'd say "she knew that the flea is there". Note that in the Phase 3 monologue she seems to have written off her delirious ramblings as just that ("it is clear I went completely metempsychotic").

If, as I speculated above, the Flea is rewriting Melissa's goals, it seems very unlikely that it's helping her.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:53 pm
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floorneyne
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clamatius wrote:
Rather than saying "she knows that the flea is there", I'd say "she knew that the flea is there". Note that in the Phase 3 monologue she seems to have written off her delirious ramblings as just that ("it is clear I went completely metempsychotic").

If, as I speculated above, the Flea is rewriting Melissa's goals, it seems very unlikely that it's helping her.


Right... but if Melissa went crazy after the crash, maybe her goals became screwed up initially, and the flea is restoring the correct goals. We could go back and forth on this all day. My only point is... I don't think we can just automatically classify the flea as a "bad guy." My gut feeling is that he is, we just don't have anything solid to go on... IMO.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:02 pm
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