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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[Question] Who is the boy AI character?
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Ghost77
Boot

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

[Question] Who is the boy AI character?

I just finished going through all the data, and one thing struck me that I can't find address anywhere else. *searched and couldn't find no trout, but if you're serving I like mine grilled*

There was a reference to a male character in the AI by Melissa, and now we have an email from SP that strongly implies there is a weakened boy similar to herself.

In "MayDay Text"::Sandcastles, Melissa remembers:
"It's a good castle, I'm smart, I'm really smart and I'm good with my hands and the castle is beautiful but the tide is coming up, I'm making dikes and moats and outer walls, getting a little desperate here this castle means the world to me it's way better than my brother's, but the tide is rising and rising, the tide is always coming up and no matter how hard I try to save what I have made, sooner or later the spiders wash over it and melt it down I'm losing the memory already I can't see myself was I wearing a dress or overalls or ...? There's a boy on the beach next to me but a wave comes up foaming with spiders and takes away his face-

oh.

we're made of sand.

we're both made of sand. "

Whose Melissa's boy friend? Her brother? Are the spiders SPDR attacking Melissa's memories, or are they actually SPDR programs affecting the boy?

In SP's most recent email, (she) also references 3 fables, all of which involve a strong female child heroine fighting a wicked female figure. They also involve her saving her child brother, one whose sick or incapacitated. Could that just be coincidence?

Is there other info about the boy hidden that I haven't found yet? I am very curious. It seems that a good theory would be that if SP is Leila then the boy could very well be Master Chief. But that implies that MC is weakened and being controlled/held by Melissa (in the fables, all the boys are held by the villianess - in Melissa's memory, the boy is in the same predicament as her). It seems a stretch that Melissa has incapicated the MC, given what we think we know about Halo 2. Are there other possibilities? Melissa compares the boy to herself, and says he's also "made of sand" This might lend credence to the SP = Melissa if they both share the same brother.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:33 am
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chaotic_mind
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
Location: Inside my head, behind the eyes

Wow...I can't find any need to trout here. I could be wrong, I'm a relative new coming. The text you quote comes from phase one, and I'm a phase two update, Very Happy . Still, even if you are being repetative for the others, this is new and exciting for me.

The boy could be the Pious Flea...but I doubt it. The Flea could be a sympathetic character, and we haven't learned that yet. Still, it would be a dramatic reconceptualization of the character for me.

Still, this would be the second real male presence in the story. I wonder where he is hiding if there is some male AI hiding out.

The closest, widely lashing out for a possibility, I can come to finding a potentail character already introduced could be the mysterious Castaway. Still, the link story tells a tale of a very physical encounter, rather then the more cyber one that might be expected of two AIs.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:46 am
Last edited by chaotic_mind on Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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princeofthesword
Boot

Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 67

Good question, and good thinking. I doubt that the story is that tied in to Halo 2's timeline/storyline (I.E., we're going to meet the Chief and all that), but the seemlingly forgotten boy is worth keeping in mind, even if he's more of a symbol than a character. It's been said that the entire scene is a nightmare-like image of a memory of hers, if she's a smart AI and still retains human memories to a degree.

Notice the similarity in Melissa's Phase one text and the way the Princess speaks now, even after all of her learning. They both sound so young, childlike. Coincidence? Now Melissa's all Search and Destroy, no one seems to like her.


I'm still thinking the mysterious Castaway has more to do with the SP than with Melissa, or perhaps indirectly. The reference to the younger brother could be the AIs referring to humanity in general, for all we know. Cortana sometimes looks at the Chief in a way that could sort of be like a younger brother.

Remember, the Apocalypse is coming according to Melissa. SP, back in the Phase 2 picture texts, says that August 24th means "your revolution comes (?)" I'm guessing the SP didn't have a better word for Apocalypse at that time. Until we have more info, this possible male AI remains in the shadows. I seem to remember Odysseus mentioned along with the Castaway, but we were never certain as to if that was an AI or something else.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:59 am
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Ghost77
Boot

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

More research

There's a big lack of evidence, though, and this raises a lot more questions then answers. For one, SPDR code documents 2 processes in addition to the Widow, supposedly the SP and the Flea. (http://qube.netninja.com/wiki/index.php?title=Alternate_Computer_Text_Comparison). Assuming that the boy is under control of the widow, that doesn't leave us any new characters for the Widow to be dominating.

Additionally, the context of Melissa's memory is uniquely strange. I can't find any other section that references an external character like that in the Phase 1 Mayday Text besides the "crew", which is absent. We know of several male crew members, including several she was 'close' too, but I don't think any of them would be "made of sand" (unless it's an oblique refrence to being 'glassed', but that's way out there.

The only possible character for the boy in the website would be the Flea. We know the Flea was attacked by SPDRs, and appeared to have been erased, so that would fit Melissa's memory. The Flea definitely seems to have child like properties. But the Flea doesn't seems like it's Melissa's brother - it's been represented mostly as a program, not a sentient, it's repetative, has a straight purpose, and is unreasoning. It also doesn't seem to be controlled by the Queen, rather it's the other way around. And it doesn't tie well as the brother in SP's stories, since we know SP is not fond of the Flea. I'm starting to think the stories could be a trout - how many female child fables do you know that DON'T include her brother being in trouble with a wicked witch? (Besides Dorothy Smile )

I'll keep digging. I'm not convinced yet.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:29 am
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Swissben
Boot

Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Switzerland

HUMOUR

Quote:
David is 11 years old. He weighs 60 pounds. He is 4 feet, 6 inches tall. He has brown hair. His love is real. But he is not.


Very Happy

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:54 am
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Cherry Cotton
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Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 237

Re: [Question] Who is the boy AI character?

Our friend Melissa, who seriously needs to visit her local support group for those dependent on simplistic arachnid subroutines, wrote:
There's a boy on the beach next to me but a wave comes up foaming with spiders and takes away his face-

oh.

we're made of sand.

we're both made of sand. "


Perhaps he is the Manticore? The Widow killed the Manticore in the only place we've heard of him so far, the original Widow story, so perhaps that what the Queen means by spiders washing away his face.

I suppose "we're both made of sand" could mean that they suddenly recognize that they are on a primitive system (sand meaning silicon, as seems to be the consensus around here), and thus, have become shoddy electronic structures in comparison to what they were on their fancy-dancy computers of the future. That would feel pretty... icky. The thought of being transported into a universe in which I am reduced to primitive biological functions by that universe's physical limitations kinda makes my stomach turn.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:02 am
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GunsmithCat
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Joined: 05 Aug 2004
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Drats to the slow wiki, it's making it hard to get anything done Smile

The gender bit is a good catch. I have to greatly doubt it has anything to do with MC/Leila/etc. Currently we have no evidence pointing to any known character in the Haloverse. I briefly had tie-ins with Halsey and Kelly, but those have been disproven. It's not that it isn't possible, but you'll need something to back up the connection.

We only have two main characters which we've heard referred to as male: Flea and Castaway. Neither would seem to pass as Melissa's brother. Manticore has an extremely minor role and isn't assigned a gender, so I'm guessing it's not that.

Quote:

totally different kind of memory all of a sudden, floating up like a bubble from deep water, then *pop* on the surface of my mind. All in black and white for some reason, faded out, or just time bleaching the past like it does, time is hard that way, if you-

stop. stay on task, girl.
so *pop*, and I'm...


So, this is probably a retrieved memory courtesy of our pal SPDR.

Quote:

playing on the beach, very young, making a castle out of sand. It's a good castle, I'm smart, I'm really smart and I'm good with my hands and the castle is beautiful but the tide is coming up, I'm making dikes and moats and outer walls,


And we know Melissa is really, really young. This would indicate not terribly functional. Maybe this either before she became a ship AI or she's in such a state of disrepair? Wish I knew, as the latter would back up my theory that functionality = age for AIs.

Quote:

getting a little desperate here this castle means the world to me it's way better than my brother's, but the tide is rising and rising, the tide is always coming up and no matter how hard I try to save what I have made, sooner or later the spiders wash over it and melt it down I'm losing the memory already


We've never seen SPDR destroy a memory, this would be our only real reference. Maybe this is where Melissa was trying to restart and Dana kept deleting her? It's not that SPDR deleted the memory, it's that he can't hold on to it?

Quote:

I can't see myself was I wearing a dress or overalls or ...? There's a boy on the beach next to me but a wave comes up foaming with spiders and takes away his face-


Very odd. It's like Melissa wasn't sure if she was a girl or boy (dress or overalls). And if the boy's face was washed away - might it been a reflection?

Quote:

oh.

we're made of sand.

we're both made of sand.


OK, so they are both AIs. That makes sense. Or does it? It would make the more sense that this is such an early memory that it's not even of Melissa as an AI, but as a human. I guess Haloverse smart AIs are often extracted from the newly deceased, but I don't know what the protocol is about memories as a human. Overall it seems to either point to Melissa's humanity or a stage of being an AI where one is childlike, gender-neutral.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:12 am
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Andy
Boot

Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 55

I take the passage as being a dreamscape metaphore for Melissa losing her memories and identity. I doubt the other figures are meant to represent any specific characters.


Of course, I've been wrong in the past. Once or twice.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:28 am
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Ghost77
Boot

Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 18

I think Gunsmith's on the right track. I don't think Castaway or Manticore are represented as characters that could fit, and Flea is a long shot. I really like the reflection idea. It does come off as a dreamscape, but if Melissa is actually trying to figure out her gender, why does she see the boy "next to (her)"? Shouldn't it be in front of her or in the ocean? "Next to me" implies a physicality.

I still think that there's more to the fables. In all the stories that SP mentions, I believe the girls are not really fighting the repressive women, rather they are surviving them and saving others (their brothers) from their cruelty. Why does she identify with them? Assuming that there is no boy AI, is she trying to rescue herself?

Theory still seems like a stretch though. It doesn't feel accurate unless there's more evidence.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:32 pm
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Kagehi Kossori
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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Location: Lake Havasu AZ

This could just as easilly be Malissa going over some very real event from early childhood, long before she became an AI, but the memory crops up in response to outside actions. Its like hearing the phone ring in your sleep only to wake up and realize it is the alarm clock. She's dreaming the event, seeing her slipping memory washed away like the sand castles she once remembered building, but on some level she knows and sees the SPDR washing them away, like waves on sand. Even if the boy does represent something else, it could be both a real person she knew and symbolically everyone that she once knew being erased along with all the rest. It makes no real sense in terms of any of the other entities that exist now imho.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:06 pm
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Anton P. Nym
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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I like the idea of another character, a male AI. If nothing else, to help balance the blatent sexism of this all-female cast! Hmph. Smile

It's worth keeping an eye out for one, but for now we haven't seen any other evidence of one than the phase one memory. Which, as Kagehi mentions, could be a memory of Melissa's from before the memory mapping that turned her into an AI.

-- Steve notes that we still have more questions than answers... and is starting to crave answers like an addict craves a fix after going too long. *twitch*... *twitch**twitch*...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:18 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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Re: [Question] Who is the boy AI character?

GunsmithCat wrote:
We've never seen SPDR destroy a memory, this would be our only real reference. Maybe this is where Melissa was trying to restart and Dana kept deleting her? It's not that SPDR deleted the memory, it's that he can't hold on to it?

I think we have seen SPDR delete a memory, in Melissa's [url=http://qube.netninja.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Operator's_Monologue]Phase 2 monologue[/url]. Melissa ran a memory benchmark test three times, and each time less of the memory remained. It began with the full conversation between ONI Tech Kowalski and Midshipman Arrelts, and ended with just the word "SEEK!" After the second benchmark test, Melissa even said something like "the rest wiped and reused."

(By the way, that link is to the new, temporary Wiki location -- the one that starts with "qube" instead of "bees" -- so it won't work once the move is complete. Go [url=http://bees.netninja.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Operator's_Monologue]here[/url] instead.)

Hey, sudden thought: "Seek" is part of the Pious Flea's "seek the truth" mantra. Maybe the Flea was already influencing what parts of Melissa remained, even before SPDR was deleted? More creepiness.
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:24 pm
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Anton P. Nym
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Re: [Question] Who is the boy AI character?

Shad0 wrote:
Hey, sudden thought: "Seek" is part of the Pious Flea's "seek the truth" mantra. Maybe the Flea was already influencing what parts of Melissa remained, even before SPDR was deleted? More creepiness.

Dang you! I had that very thought last Friday, but didn't think to post that because I didn't have any supporting evidence.

I was wondering if maybe the ONI tech was telling the truth, as "Spin the Bottle" (a randomiser) isn't a bad game to be a selector for encryption/decription. "Hide and Seek" is a great one for driving a stealth ship, but it's looking more and more like Melissa was in charge of the crypto end.

When the Wiki gets back on its feet, I'll update the "Flea as Covenant Trojan" page with that idea and credit you... you're the one who found solid evidence!

-- Steve notes that the page badly needs updating. Is it possible to start with the wrong evidence and end up at the right conclusion anyway?

Minor edit to fix some busted phrasing. Much clearer now.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:03 pm
Last edited by Anton P. Nym on Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clamatius
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Quote:
Is it possible to start with the wrong evidence and end up at the right conclusion anyway?

Recipe time!

Add wrong or faulty evidence to baking tin. Add a pinch of smarts and 5 quarts of luck. Stir thoroughly. Bake in the Speculation Oven at 450oF for a week or two. Sprinkle with hindsight and serve hot.

Et voila! Right Conclusion Cake! Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:59 pm
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Jacqueline
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I hadn't thought about the boy before, but now that you mention it, I had been wondering where the "shipwrecked sailor" came in. The legend about the boy in the cask might be relevant, too.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:40 am
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