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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Puzzles
[UPDATE] specific times on locations - Coordinates 8-17-04
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msekolpsu
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 119
Eck wrote:
Regardless of whether or not anything is going to BE at the appointed locations, I don't think its too much of a stretch to go to them anways... And if we're all wrong, then at least we didn't miss anything.


I think Eck is touching on a bigger issue that's occuring. When the coordinates first appeared, we had to consolidate to 3 threads just to track all the different theories and everyone seemed to be working furiously through them. Now that the times have appeared, most seem content to wait on seeing what will be at the physical locations.

We could miss something by not trying to solve this if it is a puzzle. Don't wait until the 24th to find out! Remember to seek evade reveal escape. I'd think we're at the reveal stage. After this it's escape!

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:12 pm
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PhatShady
Kilroy

Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 1

 		Noob in Sedalia, MO. . . .
FYI,
I've checked out all the spots in Sedalia, MO. One is near Blockbuster/Perkins/Texaco. Another is near a Cingular Wirless Store. The rest are all in residential areas. I was born and raised in Sedalia, so if anyone has any questions about this "Hotspot" (NOT!), ask away!

EDIT - merged post into this topic - SG

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:21 pm
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Extrasonic
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago
Eck wrote:
Regardless of whether or not anything is going to BE at the appointed locations, I don't think its too much of a stretch to go to them anways. Better safe than sorry, right? The santa cruz location is maybe 10-15 minutes from my house, so it's not a hassle or anything. I imagine there are at least a few more people within decent proximity to make stops. And if we're all wrong, then at least we didn't miss anything.


Don't misunderstand - I'm not trying to talk anyone out of going to a nearby coordinate if they want. I'm just offering my reasons for why I personally won't be doing it. After all, as many have pointed out, it is a work day - which I guess should have been my point d) for why I don't think there'll be any physical interaction at these points at these times.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:23 pm
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Eck
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 33

 		My opinion as to what will be there has probably already been touched upon by someone else. I think that each spot will have some form of contact, albeit not physical. Most of the spots listed so far have payphones at or very nearby, and the ones that don't could have objects placed there. The time differences could pertain to the amount of time it takes for each call to go through, or something. Just speculating here, don't mind me.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:26 pm
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DigitalCowboy
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
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Location: S.F. Bay Area

 		Couple of curiosities have come to me while I'm trying to look laterally at this thing. I've tried searching, and can't find any specific posts where this was answered before. If it was, let the fish fly. Otherwise, food for thought.

First of all, I definitely agree that the coordinates aren't something for US to do physically. Just too many reasons that's implausible. So I'm trying to think what Melissa would be using the coordinates for. One theory I already posted, so I won't bring it up again here. Another possibility has come to mind, though. I haven't seen any specific reference that Melissa knows her own location with any precision. The coordinates and timestamps could be a search order (albeit an odd one, geographically) to locate herself. And perhaps the task before us is to find the right location first.

Another note of some interest. And thanks to SixByNine for actually graphing the picture I was seeing in my head. With all the discussion of the odd interjection of the 2m and 4m intervals in the middle of the 3m intervals on the coord table, this may not be mere coincidence. When you graph out a simple line graph of the intervals between coordinate times, you get a perfect little "heartbeat" there in the middle. Probably nothing, but the Queen's heartbeat has been mentioned IG previously, so who knows.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:27 pm
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 209
Location: Seattle

 		Clue analysis
Seems to me that we're getting more and more hints because we haven't solved the puzzle.

I agree with Extrasonic and GunsmithCat that physical presence at the locations probably isn't necessary. For budgetary reasons, if nothing else - it's much, much cheaper to make a hard puzzle than to deploy an event in a bunch of cities. I would be very surprised if anything happens at the allocated times on 8/24.

Here's my analysis of the puzzle at a meta-level and in-game level.

I think there is a key assumption that we can make to cut down the solution space for the puzzle. Assumption: it was possible for us to solve given only the initial data and the extra info just makes it easier.

Initially, we just have a list of numbers that look like GPS coordinates. Clues we have had so far since then, in no particular order:

  • Clue #1: The Princess talks about a "road" the spider made being in the ocean. Therefore, the numbers are actual positions, or it wouldn't make any sense to say that.
  • Clue #2: The Princess says that the roads will get better now the Queen has taken over. The latest update doesn't have as many data points. Both of these imply that not all the points are significant.
  • Clue #3: The latest update has a higher degree of accuracy (6 decimal places instead of 4). This implies that while it was possible to solve with a lower degree of accuracy, it's easier to solve with a more precise location.
  • Clue #4: The latest update associates a monotonically increasing time with the points. This implies that the points are ordered.

Right now I would speculate that even more points will go away on Friday to remove more of the "noise" from the puzzle. I do not think that the exact time associated with each point is needed to solve the puzzle, since that was not provided with the initial data - the significance of the times is simply telling us that the points are provided in that order.

Given those clues and the initial assumption, it seems that we should be able to get to a solution even without more info from the PMs. I will think about it, but I suspect that I will have to leave that part as an exercise for the reader (hopefully Smart Peopletm). Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:43 pm
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Extrasonic
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago

 		Re: Clue analysis
clamatius wrote:
  • Clue #1: The Princess talks about a "road" the spider made being in the ocean. Therefore, the numbers are actual positions, or it wouldn't make any sense to say that.
  • Clue #2: The Princess says that the roads will get better now the Queen has taken over. The latest update doesn't have as many data points. Both of these imply that not all the points are significant.
  • Clue #3: The latest update has a higher degree of accuracy (6 decimal places instead of 4). This implies that while it was possible to solve with a lower degree of accuracy, it's easier to solve with a more precise location.
  • Clue #4: The latest update associates a monotonically increasing time with the points. This implies that the points are ordered.

Right now I would speculate that even more points will go away on Friday to remove more of the "noise" from the puzzle.


Actually, the Princess' exact quote was:

The Sleeping Princess wrote:
For days the Queen has been ordering her to build the most extraordinary number of little roads out from the castle. Turns out she was very particular about where she wanted them to go: more particular than the Widow understood.
(emphasis added)

So, to incorporate all four of the clues you've listed plus your spec that fewer and fewer points are important, I'll suggest that D.C. is the location of the Castle (since D.C. is the first coordinate and arguably - http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5654 - where Melissa is) and each D.C. coordinate is the start of a road. Each point that immediately precedes a D.C. coordinate (plus the very last coordinate) is an endpoint of a road. Perhaps those need more special attention than the others?

I don't know, I'm grasping here...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:57 pm
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
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Location: Seattle

 		Excellent point on the "roads out from the castle" - thanks Extrasonic! I'll add that to the Wiki version [URL=http://wiki.unfiction.com/index.php/CluesSoFar]here[/URL].
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:59 pm
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danteGA
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 		Re: Clue analysis
Edited out of existence because I don't know the difference between 210 and 220.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:03 pm
Last edited by danteGA on Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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clamatius
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 		According to a comparison between [URL=http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/files/theloc.txt]Wishi-san's old list[/URL] and his [URL=http://www.trynamics.com/location_list.html]newer list[/URL], weren't there 220 before and 210 now? Maybe I'm just confused.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:09 pm
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Extrasonic
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Location: Suburban Chicago

 		Be careful
Just a note of caution with that theory - Washington, D.C. could be pretty widely interpreted. There could be some points in Virginia that could be considered "metro D.C.".

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:12 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA

 		Re: Clue analysis
danteGA wrote:
clamatius wrote:
[*]Clue #2: The Princess says that the roads will get better now the Queen has taken over. The latest update doesn't have as many data points. Both of these imply that not all the points are significant.

While I agree that not all of the points may be significant, weren't there 210 points before and aren't there still 210 points now? The number of data points hasn't changed.

I believe there were 220 originally.

I have one "Devil's Advocate" comment -- as if I ever make any other kind! Mr. Green -- regarding Clue #1: Yes, the Sleeping Princess talked about a "road" the spider made being in the ocean, and yes, it wouldn't make any sense to say that unless the numbers were actual positions. However, it is possible that what the Princess views as important is not what Melissa views as important. That is, the Princess might have assumed, incorrectly, that Melissa was upset at SPDR's road because it led into the ocean, when Melissa was actually upset at SPDR's road for some entirely different reason.

(I will say that I think this is extremely unlikely, given that the new coordinates also had two in the ocean, which the PMs promptly moved back onto land where they presumably belong. Just an observation.)

And here's another question, for those of us who are thinking along these lines: Was the update this past Tuesday, with so many coordinates changing or disappearing altogether, really the PMs telling us to throw out everything we'd been doing for the entire week before that?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:12 pm
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clamatius
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Quote:
Was the update this past Tuesday, with so many coordinates changing or disappearing altogether, really the PMs telling us to throw out everything we'd been doing for the entire week before that?


Don't think we can rule that out. We still don't seem to have an even partial solve - we don't really know what the puzzle is, even with the extra clues. So, in other words, we may not be throwing out anything useful.

As I speculated, I think the coordinate changes/removals are a pointer to there being "noise" in the original "signal".
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:15 pm
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johnny5
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 995
Location: Elysian Fields

 		[meta?] logistics
Think about the logistics for this puzzle.
If you're a PM in California, or Washingotn, and you're building this puzzle, how are you going to know that some coordinate in Kalamazoo Michigan points to a cow pasture? They are working with available resources (mapquest, Microsoft Streets & Trips, etc. ) which may not be accurate. The points are getting better because players are weeding out the bad points. The valid points in my locale are:
1. A Library across the street from 2 museums.
2. A University
Of the other two points, one is a few blocks from a community college,
and the other is in an arts district.

What do these have in common? Information? Knowledge?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:16 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
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 		Re: Clue analysis
clamatius wrote:
Quote:
Was the update this past Tuesday, with so many coordinates changing or disappearing altogether, really the PMs telling us to throw out everything we'd been doing for the entire week before that?

Don't think we can rule that out. We still don't seem to have an even partial solve - we don't really know what the puzzle is, even with the extra clues. So, in other words, we may not be throwing out anything useful.

As I speculated, I think the coordinate changes/removals are a pointer to there being "noise" in the original "signal".

Good spec, but I should have been more specific with my off-the-cuff question.

The PMs gave us a table of coordinates. A week later, they replaced it with a significantly different table. Does this really mean that the first table they gave us was worthless...was always worthless...was always intended to be worthless...and was always intended to be a complete waste of everyone's time?

And this from the same PMs who bothered, not only to fix the one erroneous coordinate in the original table, but also to write an entire back-story for us explaining the change?

It just doesn't feel quite right to me. Even if this ARG is not from the same people who brought us the Beast, it just doesn't sit right. I wish I had something more concrete to go on here, but at this point it's just a feeling.
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 5:27 pm
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