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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Puzzles
[SPEC] Coordinates and Radio Broadcast
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459

 		Uh.

Why cant it be:

#5) Microsoft/Bungie buys a lot of commercial radio ad space like normal people?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:29 pm
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Shad0
I Have No Life


Joined: 20 Jun 2004
Posts: 2180
Location: Southern California, USA
GunsmithCat wrote:
Why cant it be:

#5) Microsoft/Bungie buys a lot of commercial radio ad space like normal people?

'Cause why would they need multiple coordinates in the same city -- not to mention GPS precision to six digits -- for that? Mr. Green

On the other hand, if you're right, we'd better get cracking on figuring out how to tell on what frequency Melissa will be broadcasting. Maybe it's hidden somewhere in those new sound files?
_________________
These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:34 pm
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GunsmithCat
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Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459
Shad0 wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
Why cant it be:

#5) Microsoft/Bungie buys a lot of commercial radio ad space like normal people?

'Cause why would they need multiple coordinates in the same city -- not to mention GPS precision to six digits -- for that? Mr. Green

On the other hand, if you're right, we'd better get cracking on figuring out how to tell on what frequency Melissa will be broadcasting. Maybe it's hidden somewhere in those new sound files?


Well, valid question but multiple coordinates could try to help pinpoint either one radio station out of several, or indicate more than one.

The precision aspect might not be necessary, it might just be IG explanation that a search is being tightened. Unless there is physical event, how much more accurate do we need?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:39 pm
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sfsdfd
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 112
Shad0 wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
Why cant it be:

#5) Microsoft/Bungie buys a lot of commercial radio ad space like normal people?

'Cause why would they need multiple coordinates in the same city -- not to mention GPS precision to six digits -- for that? Mr. Green

My point exactly. Thanks, Shad0.

We'd have to ignore much of the data we've been given (lop off all but the integer part of each coordinate), and we're missing a crucial key for every one (the radio frequency.) Occam's Razor probably shreds this theory into teeny tiny trout-bits. Wink

- David Stein

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:44 pm
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BeardedOne
Guest


 		It could easily be done without breaking any laws. The PM's need only develop a radio advertisement on the main stations that gives the impression that someone is illegaly breaking into the airwaves. You know, lot's of static etc and a semi garbled computer voice coming through in the background.

In fact, I really love this spec. Very much like what occured with the original War Of The Worlds radio program decades ago that had a large percentage of the population panicking because they thought it was all real. If the PM's did this for ILB then they'd have all the ARG'rs tuning in the office radios and getting all their colleagues listening in too. Great way to get non-players interested and break out of the mostly "internet only" aspect of the game so far. You'd also have a large group of non-players scratching their heads and calling radio stations asking what's going on. Furthermore, the new info in the radio broadcast will advance the game. Kills about 8 birds with one stone.

It could all be done extremely cheaply too. They only need to run a single advertisement because we already know the time we are supposed to listen! Brilliant!! It would be an absolute marketing coup if they did this if you ask me. A radio broadcast has got my vote.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:50 pm
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BoonIsha
Decorated


Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 207

 		lol, i cant believe my spec is actually being considered....


anyways, upon further thinking, just imagine this...

a few people on the east coast report it first...then word spreads, and by the end of the twelve hours, tons of people would have heard about it, and everyone would have listened....

and umm...someone said something about trout in this thread, i want to know wtf they are talking about? this is definitely not trout, unless you want to link me to another thread talking about radio transmissions???

anyways, we are still lacking radio frequencies...so its definitely not for sure or anything, but i am liking where this is going...

only thing is, it also removes the puzzle aspect, and i was almost certain this was a puzzle.


boon

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:09 am
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459
sfsdfd wrote:
Shad0 wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
Why cant it be:

#5) Microsoft/Bungie buys a lot of commercial radio ad space like normal people?

'Cause why would they need multiple coordinates in the same city -- not to mention GPS precision to six digits -- for that? Mr. Green

My point exactly. Thanks, Shad0.

We'd have to ignore much of the data we've been given (lop off all but the integer part of each coordinate), and we're missing a crucial key for every one (the radio frequency.) Occam's Razor probably shreds this theory into teeny tiny trout-bits. Wink

- David Stein


No offense, but Occam's has nothing on this. If anything, it's on it's side. Something physical actually happening at these coordinates is way more complicated than broadcasting to them. Having additional data which is superflous in no way contradicts the razor, because it doesn't complicate the theory as it does pad it.

That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2, but maybe 1.00000 + 1.00000 doesn't. You think that makes sense to "the simplest explanation" ?

Please. Report Occam's abuse to your local authorities. Thanks.

Yes, we're missing the frequencies. Maybe we haven't tried to delinate them enough. I haven't seen a spec so far that has enough evidence to be proven.

Fact: You can scan 5 different radio stations in the time of a given commercial if you knew enough information to find "the right one". Show me another spec that offers that level of information and maybe we can talk Occam's.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:45 am
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Unbeliever
Greenhorn

Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
BoonIsha wrote:
anyways, we are still lacking radio frequencies...so its definitely not for sure or anything, but i am liking where this is going...


Isn't it an idea to se if we do have a transmitter at all?
If I'm not compleately wrong, this is the fccs database of registered antennas/transmitters in the US - both am and fm. Now; anyone with a little more time than I may build a quick query to verify if we do have at least some matching locations?
(A description of all the files/fields is here)

Up for grabs!

- u

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:20 am
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459
Unbeliever wrote:
BoonIsha wrote:
anyways, we are still lacking radio frequencies...so its definitely not for sure or anything, but i am liking where this is going...


Isn't it an idea to se if we do have a transmitter at all?
If I'm not compleately wrong, this is the fccs database of registered antennas/transmitters in the US - both am and fm. Now; anyone with a little more time than I may build a quick query to verify if we do have at least some matching locations?
(A description of all the files/fields is here)

Up for grabs!

- u


Good info, but I think the link in the original post might be more accurate. We're not trying to determine if there are antennaes at these location as much as there are available frequencies to listen to.

That's why one of the big remaining questions is - which frequency.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:59 am
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Unbeliever
Greenhorn

Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 8
GunsmithCat wrote:
Good info, but I think the link in the original post might be more accurate. We're not trying to determine if there are antennaes at these location as much as there are available frequencies to listen to.


I didn't know about the original search page - but I see that it uses the database files as source, so it would be quite easily to make a query of available stations (and frequencies) based on that db without having to type it all in. But what the hey- I don't even believe it beeing a radio-puzzle ... Wink

- u

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:01 am
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459

 		Yeah I just noticed that while trying to hunt down the Chicago transmitters Smile

It's definitely a challenge. The axons data seems to be in NAD 83, and the fcc data is NAD 27. Even using Nadcon to convert doesn't seem as accurate as we might need.

Anyone with more GPS background please step in. Currently, I don't even have a working cell phone.

However once I did get a readable list, Chicago has a ton of radio stations. The closest one I could find to the Sun-Times location is 97.9 The Drive. It's apparently a stone's throw away, less than 2km (by my probably faulty conversions). But there are many others about as close.

Maybe that's why the data is getting more precise. To help determine the big cities.

Course there's no clue given about FM or AM. I'm assuming FM since it's more commercial, but that's just a meta arg.

Thinking if this spec is right, there's a missing piece still.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:09 am
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sfsdfd
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 112
GunsmithCat wrote:
Something physical actually happening at these coordinates is way more complicated than broadcasting to them.

Uh... what? Broadcasting to them? That's not how any normal version of radio works.

Conventional radio broadcasts aren't directional like a laser beam; they're broadcast, at huge power, from a radio tower, with a large, generally spherical signal range. Targeting a single spot is really only possible by mounting a very low-power transmitter right at that spot.

Satellite radio broadcasts are more directed, but not to a specific spot, but rather to a geographic region. Instead of a sphere, it's a very large cone, with the pointy end at the satellite. If you want to target a small area (like a coordinate), you'll probably have to build your own, new satellite, using hitherto unknown technology. Feasible, I guess, but wildly unlikely that Microsoft has built and launched 210 new satellites.
GunsmithCat wrote:
Having additional data which is superflous in no way contradicts the razor, because it doesn't complicate the theory as it does pad it.

Sure, it does. It introduces the added question of why the PMs would have gone to the extra trouble of adding additional data (additional precision points) if it was completely irrelevant. Since the proposed solution doesn't address all of the evidence, you need a second theory to explain why not. Two theories is naturally more complex than one theory (just as the Unified Theory people in physics.)
GunsmithCat wrote:
That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2, but maybe 1.00000 + 1.00000 doesn't.

Heh. In fact, it doesn't. 1.00000 + 1.00000 = 2.00000. It also happens to equal 2, but in this case you've lopped off five digits that may be very significant. 2 is a less precise answer - like saying that you live in a certain state, rather than a certain city.
GunsmithCat wrote:
Fact: You can scan 5 different radio stations in the time of a given commercial if you knew enough information to find "the right one".

:shrug: This seems increasingly unlikely. If you don't have a frequency - and broadcast band (AM vs. FM) - then the chances that you'll miss the broadcast increase a lot. Even if you catch it, you're likely to catch only part of it if you're scanning and listening for something important. Add this to the chance you don't have a radio, or that you/we don't make the rather murky connection to a radio broadcast, and you're exponentially increasing the chances that this rather large ARG exercise will be lost - even without error from the PM side.

If the PMs are going through the trouble to hold an event of this scale, it has to be likely to succeed as long as we're not stupid. Your method seems increasingly unreliable. I don't buy it.
GunsmithCat wrote:
Show me another spec that offers that level of information and maybe we can talk Occam's.

How about: "We show up on the given date, at the given time, at a specific coordinate, and expect that the PMs will have something significant there. Maybe human interaction; maybe physical object, like a sign or a package. But since we haven't been given any additional information about what to expect, we'll just expect something obvious."

That fits all of the given facts, doesn't omit any of them, and doesn't make up additional ones based on very sketchy links to radios, constellations, or Halo 2 demo CDs.

- David Stein

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:15 am
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GunsmithCat
Unfettered


Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 459
sfsdfd wrote:

Conventional radio broadcasts aren't directional like a laser beam; they're broadcast, at huge power, from a radio tower, with a large, generally spherical signal range. Targeting a single spot is really only possible by mounting a very low-power transmitter right at that spot.


Yeah. I was pretty aware of that. Sorry if a grammar slip lead you astray of the point that it's easier to broadcast a message to people than trying to get them all to 210 locations.

Quote:

Sure, it does. It introduces the added question of why the PMs would have gone to the extra trouble of adding additional data (additional precision points) if it was completely irrelevant. Since the proposed solution doesn't address all of the evidence, you need a second theory to explain why not. Two theories is naturally more complex than one theory (just as the Unified Theory people in physics.)


The spec may not address all the evidence, but that doesn't mean it's obligated to. I mean, I'm not trying to explain why the HTML changed or why there is a new background image either. If there's new evidence which could contradict the theory, then it would clearly have to be addressed. More precise data in no way contradicts the theory, nor does new fonts.



Quote:

GunsmithCat wrote:
That's like saying 1 + 1 = 2, but maybe 1.00000 + 1.00000 doesn't.

Heh. In fact, it doesn't. 1.00000 + 1.00000 = 2.00000. It also happens to equal 2, but in this case you've lopped off five digits that may be very significant. 2 is a less precise answer - like saying that you live in a certain state, rather than a certain city.


Last I checked, 2.00000 = 2. The point was that the more precise data could very well lead to the same conclusion.

Quote:

GunsmithCat wrote:
Fact: You can scan 5 different radio stations in the time of a given commercial if you knew enough information to find "the right one".

:shrug: This seems increasingly unlikely. If you don't have a frequency - and broadcast band (AM vs. FM) - then the chances that you'll miss the broadcast increase a lot. Add this to the chance you don't have a radio, or that you/we don't make the rather murky connection to a radio broadcast, and you're exponentially increasing the chances that this rather large ARG exercise will be lost - even without error from the PM side.


Oh I'll agree - I don't think this is what the PMs intend - I'm just pointing out that some of the missing evidence isn't that huge, granted very important.

Quote:

GunsmithCat wrote:
Show me another spec that offers that level of information and maybe we can talk Occam's.

How about: "We show up on the given date, at the given time, at a specific coordinate, and expect that the PMs will have something significant there. Maybe human interaction; maybe physical object, like a sign or a package. But since we haven't been given any additional information about what to expect, we'll just expect something obvious."

That fits all of the given facts, doesn't omit any of them, and doesn't make up additional ones based on very sketchy links to radios, constellations, or Halo 2 demo CDs.


Fine, let's see how that stacks up to Occam's.

My spec is that Melissa is using prior knowledge to create a radio wave in order to broadcast a mayday or to try and interact with her situation.

Your spec is that she has somehow either learned to clone people, hired couriers, bought packages or presents or something else for people she doesn't know and somehow made decisions on where to place them.

See your spec is omitting one large fact.

the backstory

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:42 am
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EricG
Kilroy

Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1

 		Long time reader, first time poster. I have a few SPECs to offer.

1) Has anyone calculated the distances between coordinates in the same cities? Maybe those distances offer a clue to which radio station, such as frequency or call letters (ASCII).

2) Combine the physical theory with the radio one: What if the GPS coordinates have something physical there which then guide us to which radio station to listen to?

3) I've read that a lot of the coordinates are at universities (I know the two here in Madison are on the UW campus). What if college radio is a possible method of transmission? Advertising costs would be much cheaper there.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:18 am
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Extrasonic
Decorated


Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago
GunsmithCat wrote:
Your spec is that she has somehow either learned to clone people, hired couriers, bought packages or presents or something else for people she doesn't know and somehow made decisions on where to place them.


Now, now, GunsmithCat, you've forgotten one important possibility with the physical interaction spec - that Melissa's new "wide awake and physical body" can travel at speeds in excess of Mach 7 and will be visiting each point in serial to greet everyone who shows up personally. Laughing

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:37 am
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