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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[NEW UPDATE] Dana's blog 8/20
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vegasdaemon
Greenhorn

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6

 		You can't help but laugh when you notice the huge amount (and still growing) of players who are absolutely fed up with the coordinate puzzle.

Just as sfsdfd said. Can't it just be that these coordinates are honestly just coordinates in the game and not possibly something tangible we can hold or go to? Who is to say these aren't game locations that are just as physically false as the server being in some old lady's house. Wink

There's just so much of this game you can layer onto reality I think. I believe who ever runs this game couldn't even think of the legal ramifications of hundreds of us running to these points and possibly trespassing, rioting, disturbing the peace, etc.

Can't we just think that these "roads" that are being built are accesses to other computing systems which will increase Melissa's power, in contrast to the horribly confined space she feels she is in now? That the relation to the statement of being "WIDE AWAKE AND PHYSICAL" means she'll be totally coherent and able to cause physical reactions in the world (control traffic signals, break into government systems, etc, things that can cause a physical reaction to the gameworld)

Sometimes these elements being displayed have to be thought up in a gameworld, just like the other things that we have to believe is real but really isn't (Dana's character, the bee store, etc)

Just my two cents. Smile

Vegasdaemon

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:02 pm
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sfsdfd
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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 		Re: I give up.
551 wrote:
Don't forget, a lot of people were working on the obvious solution, spending a great deal of time scouting out the locations and speculating on minute details which got us nowhere.

Sure - and I was one of them. I spent an evening visiting four coordinates, none of which yielded anything interesting. I saw a couple of trees, a couple of bodies of water, and several "KEEP OUT - Private Property" signs.

Sure, it's natural to start considering alternatives when the obvious fails. But then the coords were fixed, and given times, and we were simultaneously treated to a neat story about SPDR screwing them up badly and Melissa fixing them.

The combined message just seems really clear: "We're sorry we screwed up the coords. We fixed them. Be sure to visit them again, at these specific times." That would have been the appropriate indication that the meta-meta-deep-left-field-spec should take a breather.

- David Stein

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:04 pm
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Jacqueline
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 23

 		Dana's post was pretty ambiguous, but I'm guessing that if they didn't want people showing up they'd try to find some way of discouraging you guys, if only because they know a lot of players are likely to be pissed if they go through all the trouble and nothing happens.

I don't think the long wait was such a great idea, because with so long for everyone to bang their heads into a wall it looks like it's given rise to a lot of frustration and short fuses in the forums, but then again the PMs might have wanted to give players time to get organized. (or maybe they needed to get organized; handing out clues all over the country is probably tougher than it sounds.)

And for the record, I'm of the theory that the 24th will begin the real game, and there's no big puzzle involved yet; it's unlikely that *everyone* is missing some obvious connection between the locations, and if they were, once again it seems like the PMs aren't the type to just kick back and laugh while all the players run all over the country on a wild goose chase.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:07 pm
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jegger
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Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 222
Location: Atlanta, GA

 		Re: I give up.
sfsdfd wrote:
My point is simply this: When considering alternatives, try the easiest one first. Don't try the most difficult, unguessable solutions first, and then get frustrated when they don't work. And you (collectively) have no real basis for vitriol if the answer is straightforward... since no one suggested it wasn't.

The PMs want us to succeed at this game. They want us to solve every puzzle. Therefore, they can't make them so arbitrary that we probably won't find the solution.

To rip off Freud: Sometimes a coordinate is just a coordinate.


I wouldn't call this a disagreement as much as a reason for our behavior. Of course we all saw the simple solution almost immediately. We were given a deadline and a theory that we were not 100% sure of. Sure we could sit back and wait for the deadline to try the simple theory, but What if it's wrong?. We can't go back once the deadline has passed. We couldn't try the easy solution first. We had to try all of them at the same time! I personally think that we did the right thing in exploring all avenues and determining what methods would be necessary to test those hypotheses at the appropriate time. I'm sorry that some people got burned out from it, but I find that these exercises have prepared me for the sort of lateral thinking that I'm sure I'll be doing once we start the roller-coaster. I for one will not be complaining if and when the pay phones start ringing. I'll be satisfied knowing that I helped to prepare for every eventuality.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:17 pm
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sfsdfd
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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 		Re: I give up.
GunsmithCat wrote:
What annoys me about this is your smug attitude...

(sigh) Common response from someone who's proven wrong on an issue they've taken too personally - lash out at the other side. I will note that you've been rude throughout our discussion - to the point of asking me to leave "your" thread. I think you're taking this game too seriously. Contrast your comments with others I've debated, like Extrasonic - do you notice more civility among the rest of the discussion?
GunsmithCat wrote:
What if it hadn't been obvious? And what if it wasn't in their best interest?

Then it would have been a lousy puzzle with a high chance of failing and thereby turning off the entire audience for this game.
GunsmithCat wrote:
We're not going to have people at all 210 places. So whatever message or clue or present is probably going to be the same in every place.

210 copies of the same exact message is far too redundant, even wasteful. More likely, it will be something like 7 copies of 30 puzzle pieces - with the expectation that several copies of each will be delivered. And even if a piece or two fails, these PMs actually have experience with that... the exact same thing happened in one of the A.I. game events.
GunsmithCat wrote:
But it turns out to be something like pay phones...

Heh. If I showed up in a designated 10-foot radius in Cleveland, and at exactly 9:10am a pay phone five feet away started ringing... you believe I wouldn't think to answer it? Interesting.

I, otoh, trust that everyone here has a brain sufficient to catch whatever the PMs are going to toss us next Tuesday.
GunsmithCat wrote:
If I'd listen to you and the thread just died, probably never would have gotten the connection between pay phones and the theory.

Yes, thanks to your discussion of radio frequencies, we're all on the lookout for pay phones. Otherwise, we would just have let them ring, and not thought to answer them.

I guess the several other threads discussing pay phones would have had nothing to do with it, either. It's just because of your thread about radios.

- David Stein

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:18 pm
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sfsdfd
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 112

 		Re: I give up.
jegger wrote:
Sure we could sit back and wait for the deadline to try the simple theory, but What if it's wrong?. We can't go back once the deadline has passed. We couldn't try the easy solution first. We had to try all of them at the same time!

Sure. In fact, it's probably best to go in thinking, "It's probably going to be a person, or a package, or a phone call. It could be something less likely, such as a WiFi network or a radio transmission."

But some parts of this group have gone overboard - to the point of writing, "I'll be really disappointed and angry if it's just a package, because I've been developing this pet theory that would've been so much better." It's disappointing to see people get burned out because they lacked perspective. That kind of comment was the point of my post.

- David Stein

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:27 pm
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Extrasonic
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 233
Location: Suburban Chicago

 		Re: I give up.
Honestly, this has a lot to do with Dana's weblog post... be patient. Smile

sfsdfd wrote:
The more complex methods should be considered if the simplest one failed. If we visit the coords on Axon Day and find nothing at all interesting, then that is the time to break into the more speculative theories. Burning yourself out on them before then is kind of pointless. (That's a hypothetical "yourself," not you, Extrasonic.)


Still, I can't agree that "show up" was the simplest answer. It was infeasible for anyone using the first set of coordinates, and it is still infeasible for anyone outside the continental U.S. (the whole world is full of potential Halo 2 customers), people who have to work/attend school, or people who will be more than a few miles from an axon point at the designated time. Personally, I think the axon points were revised once the PMs realized people were going to go there - more like "oh crap, we never intended people to go to these places! We'd better move these to a place where neither we nor our players will get in trouble for congregating!"

EDIT: Almost forgot an important point!!! Let's not forget that there's a COUNTDOWN TIMER on the axon page. That suggests that if it is a puzzle and not a "just show up" instruction, that we'd have to solve it before the timer runs out, no? That directly invalidates the "wait and see what happens with the no-brainer solution, and then try other things" approach, wouldn't you say?

sfsdfd wrote:
Extrasonic wrote:
Not to re-open arguments on other threads like this one: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=57099#57099 but suffice it to say there's not much which can happen at these coordinates that would be compatible with the in-game story, let alone make in-game sense.

And while I don't want to re-open that discussion either, I'll just reiterate that making the in-game connection isn't our job. Our job is to find and solve puzzles. The altitude map at the end of the AI ARG wasn't solved by pondering its in-game connection (in fact, there wasn't one.) We were given a map and told to use clay. If you did that, you solved the puzzle (er, kinda... it didn't work too well.)


We're not going to convince each other on this point - it's your speculation versus my speculation about what "fits" into the game. In the interest of convincing the other, non-sfsdfd players, though, I will point out that your speculation about what fits is a house of cards:

  • IF you assume that this ARG is being run by The Beast PMs because of its relationship to Microsoft, and
  • IF you assume that they would run it exactly the same way as they ran The Beast, and
  • IF you assume that notoriously plot-oriented Bungie isn't providing guidance about an ARG promoting their game,
  • THEN it's ok to have puzzles that aren't plot-compatible.


Compare that to my competing speculation:
  • IF you consider only what has been presented in the context of this ARG so far,
  • THEN plot matters.


Please note that I'm not saying that it isn't likely that The Beast PMs are behind this game, but it's not a fact. It's not confirmed. You have spec based on spec based on spec and I have observation. I'll take mine, thank you very much.

sfsdfd wrote:
Extrasonic wrote:
Finally, maybe I'm reading too much into Dana's blog posts, but I do believe the moral of the "chocolate-filled donut having meat in it" story and the "cafe that was actually a pirate DVD shop" story...

And a whole lot of people have leapt overboard to amazing conclusions, based on sketchy links to a few unrelated pieces of text. Consider the spec that since SP once described the axons as "roads," we should all bust out Rand McNally and intricately analyze highways between coordinates.


Making the comparison between the blog post structure and Rand McNally is unfair and flawed. I don't think it's that far of a leap to say that two consecutive blog posts which both have the format of "wow, I thought something was X and then it was Y - let's talk about axons now!" is meaningful. If you disagree, then either you're only adhering to your "the simplest answer is right" dogma when it's convenient, or you have a much, much higher tolerance for coincidence than I do.

sfsdfd wrote:
But Dana clearly sets forth the point of the story: "I guess I feel like, in a way, you're all being invited to a mysterious back room, too." The point of the story seems plain: it's setting the stage, building up tension. Half of the fun of these games is in the atmosphere they create, via techniques like mysterious phone calls. The anticipation makes the payoff more fun.

If you want to read into it an implicit message, like "don't expect anything there" - you'll have to overcome the explicit messages:

"Those coordinates... and now the times that go with them... they're beckoning to some of you, aren't they? When the axons go hot, you're going to be there. I think that's very brave. And I'm incredibly grateful. ... You guys are the ones on the frontlines."


Yeah, I think this is what the literary criticism books call an "unreliable narrator". She says she thinks we're brave for showing up at the axon coordinates right after telling us she's been burned for judging a book by its cover. FOR THE SECOND TIME. The way I (and others, judging by the posts) interpret this is "you're brave because you're going to coordinates that were written by an AI that wants to kill me and you don't know why."

It's the not knowing why we're going which makes the "just show up" idea so unsatisfying.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:53 pm
Last edited by Extrasonic on Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Atoner
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Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 136

 		The combination of the blog post and the coords page is just too ambiguous to me. It seems that you really could take it either way.

On one hand, if these really were places we were supposed to go, it seems quite improbable that one set of incorrect coordinates would be released, then another. That smacks of shoddy work, and I just can't see anyone going to so much trouble just to be imprecise. That points more towards the coordinates being a puzzle and not a map of where we need to be,

On the other hand, I would think that the PM's couldn't put a list of coordinates down and expect that no one would be curious as to what was actually there. How could they expect us to see them and then not want to see if we could get there? I would imagine their first expectation upon dropping a bunch of coordinates on us would be that we would go and find them.

I don't find myself in either camp just yet.

-Atoner-

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:05 pm
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Nuriko
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Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 172
Location: NORTH COUNTY San Diego

 		Sigh.
I don't want to cause any points of contention between anybody here, but I seem to feel as though people forgot that we have two months between when the axons heat up and when H2 is released. In Dana's blog she mentioned that the people going to the points are "brave" and she is "grateful".

That's good enough for me.

I don't think it's going to be very exciting considering how many posts I've seen with people insisting on the Demo Disc Theory (which I believe is a load of crock >_>) but maybe another major clue to the game that only the people who care enough to show up will get to participate in.

Isn't it more worth it to spend (literally) three minutes on the phone than to try to solve a puzzle in the future without three minutes of information?

Just a thought.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:07 pm
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hamatoyoshi
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 127

 		I just made a post in the Payphone Thread, about how gimicky and illogical the payphone idea is.

While I think the payphone idea is the overwhelming sensible idea, I don't think it's a particularly good one.

Unless Melissa's going to converse with people, why not release her important message in another wav file?

Also, why the runaround with changing coordinates?

It all stinks of poor game design thus far.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:13 pm
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sfsdfd
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 112

 		Re: I give up.
Extrasonic wrote:
Honestly, this has a lot to do with Dana's weblog post... be patient. Smile

Of course I'm patient. I'm enjoying this chat. Smile
sfsdfd wrote:
It was infeasible for anyone using the first set of coordinates, and it is still infeasible for anyone outside the continental U.S. (the whole world is full of potential Halo 2 customers), people who have to work/attend school, or people who will be more than a few miles from an axon point at the designated time.

But solving whatever puzzle the coords represent doesn't require that every player visit one. We will probably just need most of the coordinates visited by at least one player. ARGs are inherently pitched to a large, collaborative group of players - especially if these events really are timed.

So, yes, it does suck for those who can't participate. But the game can continue, and the puzzle can succeed, without excluding these people. It's probably logistics: pitching this event (whatever the PMs have in mind) on a scale accessible to everyone might have been exorbitantly expensive or unwieldy.

(One specific point in this regard: WGS-84 and NAD-27 are the prevalent GPS datums in the U.S. - but only in the U.S. Without going into too much detail, I'll state that these datums rely on spherical models of the world that closely match the U.S. Other countries have to use different models - and there are hundreds of datums. [I know this because I programmed them, by hand, into a geocaching application I wrote.] Consequence: If the PMs wanted to host a worldwide GPS-related event, they'd have to teach everyone about datums... thereby alienating the 90% of potential players who find such things boring.)
Extrasonic wrote:
Personally, I think the axon points were revised once the PMs realized people were going to go there - more like "oh crap, we never intended people to go to these places! We'd better move these to a place where neither we nor our players will get in trouble for congregating!"

That's an interesting theory. Keep in mind, however, that not all of the original coords were in the wilderness - many, perhaps most, actually pointed to a specific public place (fountains, libraries, etc.)

Also, keep in mind that even the original coords were extremely well-fit to population centers. If visiting these locations wasn't part of the plan, why bother with this? Why not choose them in arbitrary spots, like the middle of the Appalachians?

We'll have to ask the PMs once we finish this game, but I think it's very unlikely.
Extrasonic wrote:
In the interest of convincing the other, non-sfsdfd players...

Huh? There are non-sfsdfd players?

Wink

Extrasonic wrote:
I don't think it's that far of a leap to say that two consecutive blog posts which both have the format of "wow, I thought something was X and then it was Y - let's talk about axons now!" is meaningful.

Yeah, I think this is what the literary criticism books call an "unreliable narrator".

Heh - you can't have it both ways to support two separate arguments - not simultaneously, anyway. You can't simultaneously say she doesn't know what's at the coordinates, and thus can't knowledgeably encourage us to visit, and that she does know what's (not) at the coordinates, and thus is implying that we shouldn't consider them event locations.

My point, for the last time, is that the PMs are consistently and strongly encouraging us to visit. If we visit and find nothing, then they've alienated a good portion of the player base. So I don't think that is a reasonable scenario.

- David Stein

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:17 pm
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hamatoyoshi
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Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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 		To quote myself from the Payphone Thread:

Quote:
So now that I can lookup these payphones' numbers and I know what time to call, what's to stop me from pranking every payphone at the given time?


PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:20 pm
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 209
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 		Multiple levels
Quote:
You can't simultaneously say she doesn't know what's at the coordinates, and thus can't knowledgeably encourage us to visit, and that she does know what's (not) at the coordinates, and thus is implying that we shouldn't consider them event locations.

I don't think this is necessarily true. It's perfectly possible for Dana to have "in-game" ignorance while conveying meta-game knowledge.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:22 pm
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sfsdfd
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hamatoyoshi wrote:
Unless Melissa's going to converse with people, why not release her important message in another wav file?

There's a huge stylistic difference, though. The coords involve breaking out of the Internet, and making this game personal. Melissa isn't just uploading a file for all to see... she's calling you! This is one of the defining qualities of an ARG.

It would also have the in-game significance that Melissa is clearly becoming a lot more powerful. Old and busted: Doctored wav files. New hotness: Telephone networks. Wink
hamatoyoshi wrote:
Also, why the runaround with changing coordinates?

It all stinks of poor game design thus far.

All ARGs to date tend to be a bit rough around the edges. They're all run by small groups on fairly small budgets, and they are, by definition, hugely ambitious. Errors happen. Consider the SP text posted with the updates: "The Queen has taken over road-building, and the roads are going to be better from now on..." Does that not seem like a thinly-veiled admission of error and a tacit apology?

- David Stein

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:23 pm
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Atoner
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Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 136

 		Re: Sigh.
Nuriko wrote:
but maybe another major clue to the game that only the people who care enough to show up will get to participate in.


That would be enormously stupid and alienating to players such as myself who are a good solid 12+ hour drive away (Texas) from any "Axon Point".

-Atoner-

PostPosted: Fri Aug 20, 2004 6:23 pm
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