unforum

[Oriza]

Wow.
So let me get this straight....

Original PM for WUF had a different idea as to how the game was going to go. MrKrop-player gamejacks and leads game in different direction. Original PM says 'Hell yeah, let's do that instead' and game becomes murder mystery?

[Euchre]

Re: For your review and comment

[xnbomb]

I'm not quite as pessimistic about this. The way West Unfictionopia was set up always looked to me like a big, egalitarian playground. And the idea of players doing things like selecting their job on the island, and picking out their own piece of land, in combination with an in-game forum where most of the gameplay 'lives', has always suggested to me (as a sort of meta-communication) that players in this case were going to have every opportunity to shape the game reality themselves.

These notions of unequal access or unfair advantage or favor from the PMs have a fairly specific implication: Namely, that only some players are able to do these things, or that there is any way to selectively prevent any player from making their own contributions to the West Unfictionopia reality. This is one of the things that has always sort of perplexed me about the notion of an in-game forum: In what sense (if any) is what a player posts vetted by all the other players, characters, and puppetmasters? Here, I would argue, there's really no filter. Short of the puppetmasters using moderator smackdown powers (i.e. locking topics, deleting posts, contradicting what someone posted by writing that the "authorities" disagree) to keep players from posting whatever they want on the West Unfictionopia forums, and thus creating some of the game reality (and a narrative in that reality) whatever people decide to post, goes.

I would actually argue that the puppetmasters are incorruptible, or maybe totally corruptible by any and all because they, through this structure, have thrown open the doors of 'reality authorship' (or whatever you want to call it) to all participants in West Unfictionopia. From my vantage point, I had suspected that the Emperor etc. never had a specific plan beyond setting up the milieu and then letting whoever was so bold to do whatever they'd wish done (signaled by the old powers-that-be vanishing from the island, and a somewhat hands-off imperial regime).

I wonder about the notion of 'official' approval by puppetmasters in this circumstance and whether it even matters. I can see the temptation to ask permission, especially if you come from the traditional gameplay structure of player <-> character <-> puppetmaster ... because you're just not used to this, and you don't want to step on the Emperor's imperial toes. But it really looks to me like something different and new, where the anonymous player could just as easily have done this without asking for or receiving permission, and having achieved the same result. I guess the question is, is it a gamejack if it is what the 'puppetmaster' always really had in mind? I'd call it more of a collaborative authorship experiment, and I think the meta-communications said that this it what it would be as clearly as they could have.

I agree that it is chaotic fiction, but it is not a traditional alternate reality game. And I further agree that from a Terms of Service point of view here, it is very tricky stuff. That doesn't mean it doesn't have the potential to be fun for the players, although it is more than likely to be very trying for moderators and administrators here in the instance where the participant is not as insightful as the anonymous player has been (and the situation is more ambiguous). The problematic scenario is when this idea of collaborative authorship of the alternate reality actually starts working really well, and it gets all mixed up, with many individuals effectively & simultaneously assuming the roles of player, character, and puppetmaster all at once. Then, in the extreme, it becomes something like role playing, and an honest out-of-game discussion here on unfiction becomes perhaps impossible, because the parts of the game that each participant has created are so effectively intertwined that there are few or no parts of the reality that each and everyone hasn't been involved in creating in some way.

[Euchre]

If you can get the PMs to break the curtain and speak outside the concept of TINAG, you've gained access that the conventional understanding of an ARG would not expect. Nobody knew that they could do such a thing, and many didn't expect it. To make such a thing so dissolves the whole traditional structure of an ARG.

In this particular case, some knew from the start who the PM really was. They knew how to contact them, and basically could assume they could break the wall of TINAG. I certainly didn't know if I could send an email or PM to the Emperor and expect to get anything other than a response completely in character. Thus, one not 'in the know' doesn't have the opportunity to attempt such a thing, because they have the reasonable expectation that they'll be dismissed.

I don't think this whole WuF affair is ruined at this point per se, but it certainly is for some. If the PMs had been a truly blind party to all of the players, then one could say that no player had advantage. This just wasn't the case from the start (and I knew this going in). If it had been the case, and the first to venture such an idea had been the 'lucky one' then feelings might be different. Again, it's just not the case here.

I'm not worried. I find this all very amusing. There are so many ideas going around in my head right now about all of this it's perfectly entertaining. I won't say it's a good thing or bad thing, but I guarantee there's going to be casualties. When you make omelets you break eggs, the more interesting question here is what nest those eggs are really coming from, and who's breaking the eggs.

[imbri]

[danteIL]

Once again, I feel compelled to add that I still don't get this fetishization of the curtain </hobbyhorse>

[Euchre]

Contacting PMs about a real life level of concern is one thing, asking the PMs for some degree of control over the game is another. I'm not saying that alerting a PM that a stalker or pedophile is on their forum is some tragic thing that destroys TINAG, I'm saying that players being able to pierce the division between character PM and real controlling person PM disrupts that.

How would one know to even ask for a piece of the game control if one did not know who the PM was? Would one realistically expect to have a chance to have such a question even acknowledged if one did not know who the PM was? What would one think of a PM that easily steps out of character and hands so much control over to a player they don't know? (These are not meant as rhetorical questions.)

[Nighthawk]

[imbri]

[pancito]

I should probably respond to this in the spirit of doing damage control for the PM. I, like xnbomb, viewed WuF as a sort of giant playground. If there was a game I couldn't see it. I'm not a big fan of Scattergories, so I wanted to do something else. I approached the PM and asked to do a mini-game. Note that I asked the PM via in-game email to the Emperor with the subject as OOG. Anyone could have done this. I still don't know who the PM is for certain, though people have told me this and that. Nor do I have any clue as to what the game is or will be about other than that ferrets are involved. Which was obvious anyway. The information about the mini-game flows in one direction only other than very vague discussions about timeline. ("What's your timeline?" "Maybe this long" "OK"). The PM knows everything the Clue team does, because we cc the Emperor, but we know nothing about his or her plans. The one thing the PM has done to help this along, changing Krop's status to 'deceased,' came as surprise to me as well. I didn't know about it until someone else mentioned it.

While the team has been doing this we have discussed the idea of a Perpetual ARG Machine(TM), a space where players, in character, can run mini-games. The idea intrigues us. But that's a different topic.

I'm still catching up on reading, but as I see it right now there are two main complaints. First, that the Clue team were given special privileges and or information. I hope the explanation above answers that. We weren't. The second issue goes something like, "But I didn't know this wasn't the real game." This is a legitimate concern, I think. I want to say, "An ARG threw you a curve? Oh my! Imagine!" but that doesn't really address the issue. I knew we were pushing conventional boundaries into a gray area, but I was thinking of this as more CF and using the gamespace in unique ways. If you feel betrayed in some way, I understand the feeling, but not so well the reasons behind it. I had a long conversation with one of the players about this and I am still a bit confused. Every reason the player could give me I could give examples of the same thing happening in another game. But I still think the feeling is legitimate and just because I can argue a given point doesn't make the feeling go away. Nor does it mean that there isn't a certain dishonesty inherent in this style of play. But I also think that is true of all ARGs. TINAG, e.g.

I'll be more than happy to discuss this (or any other aspect) in this thread, if someone wants to help me understand those feelings. But the gamespace is the gamespace, and what goes on there is different. That Pancito is as clueless as anyone else. His parrot, though... Nor will I address it in the WuF thread on these forums. That's not the appropriate place, I don't think.

In the mean time, if you don't want to be involved in this aspect of the game, that's fine. (And maybe that's the real problem. "I thought it was in-game and would push the plot forward." Well it is in-game, depending on how you define that. It may or may not push stuff forward. Not my decision. I have gotten hints that the PM is as intrigued by this as everyone else. But that could be misdirection.) I don't always do Scattergories, either, or bug the Doctor, or partake of other aspects of the gamespace that we have collectively created. If you want to play, you can do that too. And the mini-game will continue until the killer is caught or there is not a single player that wants to go on. That's the kind of PM I am. And there are still a few curve balls up our sleeves. Think of this as an alcove with a semi-transparent curtain within the larger gamespace. But there's still that very opaque curtain over there in the main room, and I'm as clueless about what happens behind it as anyone else. More so in some details.

[Agent Lex]

[catherwood]

[ndemeter]

So this is interesting. Based on the Emperor's email I don't see that the PM's were OK with the gamejack. Using terms like "...a mini-PM chat to try to stop the bleeding" and "...to try to settle some of the stomach that the whole story isn't sitting as well with" appears to me to say that the gamejack was NOT invited but the PM's are trying hard to accomodate.

I am sad to see this game get like this. It has surely caused me not to be as involved since I do not know if I am helping the original story or someone else's.

[Fishjp]

As a WuF player I have to say I find nothing wrong with what is going on. WuF is a unique setup and lends itself to this kind of "gamejack". That being said I can also fully understand why some people may be turned off by this sort of thing. Nearly every Internet forum has a "troll" lurking somewhere waiting to ruin everyone else's good time.

The biggest potential problem with this setup of players suddenly becoming part of a game is what is there to prevent me or anyone else from saying "I caught the killer it was so and so and I shot him in the head." Denials would ensue, players would argue and no one would know for certain who to believe.

This is working only because of a level of trust we have built here at uF. the TOS help keep that trust safe from tampering. The blurring of the lines between player and PM that is happening at WuF is understandable and working in that game, for now.

I suggest that WuF is less like a ARG or CF than it is like a RPG. Everyone selected a job and is playing a character. In most ARGs that I have participated in you are expected to be "you" just in an alternate reality. In order for that kind of game to work the players MUST know who is playing and who is leading, otherwise a complete breakdown could occur ruining the experience for everyone.

OK I have rambled on somewhat incoherently for long enough, I hope that the points I was trying to make can be understood by anyone taking the time to sort through this post.

[Ziola]

I can completely understand what you are saying, Fish. And I concur. I have no problem with what is going on in WUF. Most of that has to do with my admittedly skewed view of things (I didn't really see this as the "main" game, since we haven't even gotten to the island yet) so I just approached it as a welcome distraction until I got my darn boarding pass. I can understand why some would be irritated by it and empathize with their feelings and reactions. Most of my feelings probably have to do with the fact that I mainly play in a universe (the coalition) where gamejacking and developing is not only accepted, it is encouraged by the PM's.