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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: General » Old News & Rumors
[TRAILHEAD] Must Love Robots
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Lysithea
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 468
Location: Australia

I think the probability is 1/2.

This is an English linguistic problem rather than a mathematical one.

The answer would of course be different if we were asked to select a child at random where one child is a girl and the other child's gender is unknown.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:21 pm
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Tresbien
Unfictologist


Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 1436

I agree with Lysithea. The clue/question reads: "A girl robot and boy robot fall in love and get married. They have two kid robots (or what ever are called) one of them is a girl robot. Given the probability of each gender is 1/2. What is the probability that the other kid is also a girl robot." It's more like a riddle with the answer contained therein than a mathematical probability question.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:52 pm
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PostLarval
Entrenched


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 806
Location: 32° 43'N, 117° 10'W (give or take)

Lysithea wrote:
I think the probability is 1/2.

This is an English linguistic problem rather than a mathematical one.

The answer would of course be different if we were asked to select a child at random where one child is a girl and the other child's gender is unknown.


This question is actually a fairly classic mathematical problem and a standard example used in teaching probability theory. Just based on having seen this problem multiple times, I'm certain the answer should be 1/3.

First, it's important to note that this question is a paradox (making it perfect for an ARG puzzle). This is because, based on the wording alone, we could do the same math yet come up with different answers.

To begin with- it's critical we understand that we're not being asked for the probability of ONE child being a girl. We're being asked for the probability of BOTH children being girls. The reason that they state the gender probability is 1/2 is so that we can use THAT probability to solve for the second probability.

Now, if we're considering two children, there are four possible combinations:

A: Child 1 = Boy, Child 2 = Girl
B: Child 1 = Boy, Child 2 = Boy
C: Child 1 = Girl, Child 2 = Boy
D: Child 1 = Girl, Child 2 = Girl

If we know that Child 1 = Girl, the next step of the problem gives us only two possible options: C or D. So given these two options, only one allows for Girl/Girl. Giving us a 1/2 probability.

Here's the paradox: our puzzle doesn't tell us if the girl child is Child 1 or Child 2. That leaves us with three options- A, C, or D. Of these three only one allows for Girl/Girl. Giving us a 1/3 probability.

Weird, yes, but that's why it's a paradox. And because the puzzle specifically asked us to deal in probabilities, I'm certain that this is how we were supposed to approach it Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:50 am
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Lysithea
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 468
Location: Australia

I maintain that this is an English language problem.

Scenario 1:
You have met one of the robot children. She is a girl.
You have no idea about the gender of the second child.
The probability is 1/2.

Scenario 2:
A friend of yours has met both children. Your friend mentions a girl, but does not mention the other child.
The probability is 1/3.

These scenarios are different because your friend had two chances of meeting a girl in scenario 2. Whereas you only had one chance of meeting a girl in scenario 1.

To me, the words in the problem could be interpreted either way.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:48 am
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danteIL
Unfictologist


Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

I have to agree with Lysithea -- I think that you are overthinking this. Each birth is an independent event. Therefore, each birth has a 1/2 chance of being a girl. Nothing more complicated than that.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:51 am
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PostLarval
Entrenched


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 806
Location: 32° 43'N, 117° 10'W (give or take)

danteIL wrote:
I have to agree with Lysithea -- I think that you are overthinking this. Each birth is an independent event. Therefore, each birth has a 1/2 chance of being a girl. Nothing more complicated than that.


You'd think so. But it's not so. Maybe this will help:

http://fukamachi.org/wp/2009/01/02/probability-paradoxes

Lysithea wrote:
I maintain that this is an English language problem.

It partially is. The solution to the paradox is dependent on the wording used. Since the puzzle uses the terms "one of them" and "the other" to identify the kid robots, we can't concretely identify which kid robot is the first and which is the second. This ambiguity determines the way we go about reaching the solution. Which in this case is 1/3.

If the language used said "the first kid is a girl", then we would have to go about it differently, and the solution would be 1/2. Bizarre, I know, but that's probability theory.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:21 am
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Lysithea
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 468
Location: Australia

PostLarval wrote:
The solution to the paradox is dependent on the wording used.
Exactly. Smile

Page 5 of 6 is another language problem.
It says "ENTRY HOMO".
Wikipedia says "Athletes participating 5,338 (4,727 men, 611 women)"
Do we take the total number of athletes, or just the men?
While Pastor Ludd is very bigoted towards robots, he doesn't appear to be sexist. Therefore I assume the 4 digit passcode is 5338.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:59 am
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Abraxas
Unfettered

Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 736
Location: Cologne, Germany

See, they expected a split! Twisted Evil
Especially since the passcode is equally ambiguous.

I am with PL on this one. Because probability theory is all about confusing descriptions. It is very much a language problem.
For me, the difference between those two sentences is key:

"What is the probability that the other kid is also a girl robot."
"What is the probability that the other kid is a girl robot."

First one: 1/3
Second one: 1/2

Smile

And yeah, I realise you could read this different. That's why I hate prob theory.

As for IG logic, why this should be linguistic and not mathematical, you say, because Ludd did it? Well, I bet he didn't. I bet Johnny aka Lugnut did it. And somehow sabotaged it. Maybe he deliberately kept it ambiguous, for the 36 to be split up or at least have in-fighting. And yes, that means either side could be right or wrong. I should think these arguments through next time...
Ok, I didn't pay attention in class...but someone else must have come up with this.

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:15 am
Last edited by Abraxas on Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostLarval
Entrenched


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 806
Location: 32° 43'N, 117° 10'W (give or take)

So to sum up what we know so far:

Lugnut (now inhabiting DICS network guy, Johnny) intercepted six documents that Ludd was trying to send out to his disciples. He forwarded these documents to the people who discovered he is still alive, and who support his efforts, with the hope that they can make sense of them.

Since it wasn't posted before, here is Johnny's message:

Johnny wrote:
I just blocked these six documents from being sent out to Ludd's 36... They seem to be some sort of cult-like symbols. I thought I would send them your way to get an extra set of eyes on them... Not really sure what this means. Perhaps, some new plan that Ludd is cooking up. I am sure he will figure out that these had not been sent to his 36 and will try to resend it to them. I think I can hold him off for a week at least though. Let me know what you find out...

I was unable to send this through the mail. My lack of corporeal form presents a problem. Hopefully, you will be able to get them.


-So far we have received pages one through five. We have no idea where page six is.

-Pages one and two tell us that the 36 disciples will be expected to find 36 substations located all over the world, and activate them by entering a code into a device found there. Coldoil has been involved all along, and is currently using the robot speed dating as a distraction to keep the robots (and robot supporters) from noticing what Ludd is up to.

-Page three tells us the date by which the 36 need to activate the substations. We think that date might be (on or around) July 13th.

-Page four tells us how to locate the substations. We haven't addressed this in much detail yet, or seen an image of the page. But the hints on it appear to be "Doth|come|one|36|sub|station" (per ineffabelle's solve).

-Page five tells us the four digit code to be entered. It's an image of a medal from the 1960 Olympic games with the engraving "ENTRY HOMO". Spec at this point is that it might be the total number of participants from those games- 5338.

-Page six tells us where to find the input device once we find a substation. But it's currently MIA.

If there's anything I'm missing, let me know.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:01 am
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Lysithea
Unfettered


Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 468
Location: Australia

Nice summary, PostLarval. You should send it to Johnny.
Quote:
Let me know what you find out about the pages... I will be working on cracking them as well.

Johnny
He should be able to sort out the ambiguities.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:27 am
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danteIL
Unfictologist


Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

PostLarval wrote:

-Page five tells us the four digit code to be entered. It's an image of a medal from the 1960 Olympic games with the engraving "ENTRY HOMO". Spec at this point is that it might be the total number of participants from those games- 5338.


Again, by Occam's Razor, why wouldn't the 4 digit code be 1960?

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:47 am
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PostLarval
Entrenched


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 806
Location: 32° 43'N, 117° 10'W (give or take)

danteIL wrote:
PostLarval wrote:

-Page five tells us the four digit code to be entered. It's an image of a medal from the 1960 Olympic games with the engraving "ENTRY HOMO". Spec at this point is that it might be the total number of participants from those games- 5338.


Again, by Occam's Razor, why wouldn't the 4 digit code be 1960?


That's why I called it spec Wink And hell, it wouldn't be much of a puzzle if the solution was in big bold obvious print right on the front of the clue!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:50 am
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danteIL
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1990

PostLarval wrote:
That's why I called it spec Wink And hell, it wouldn't be much of a puzzle if the solution was in big bold obvious print right on the front of the clue!


Well these *are* from Pastor Ludd -- he's not known for his subtlety...

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 10:24 am
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PostLarval
Entrenched


Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 806
Location: 32° 43'N, 117° 10'W (give or take)

danteIL wrote:
PostLarval wrote:
That's why I called it spec Wink And hell, it wouldn't be much of a puzzle if the solution was in big bold obvious print right on the front of the clue!


Well these *are* from Pastor Ludd -- he's not known for his subtlety...


You know, I was thinking the same thing as I was typing that sentence...

Seriously though... to answer the question for anyone who's wondering, and to add a little more detail to Lysithea's explanation: she's saying that ENTRY HOMO could translate to "persons entered", which given the medal and the date suggests "persons entered" into the 1960 Olympic games. Which was 5338. Smile
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:50 pm
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Pixiestix
Resident Angry Midget


Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 2465
Location: Tomorrow's Talk Studios

Got my reply from PNL {and since not everyone has joined the 36 & the mailing list for said group, I'll post mine now}

I decided to RP a bit for PNL since i'm being myself for 011ie & co.

WHAT I WROTE:
Quote:
Your word speaks truth, Brother! Allow me to share my story, and join your worthy cause.

My name is Theresa. A couple years back, my mother got really sick. Now, this was back when they first started letting those nasty ROBOTS assist in hospitals. She was quarantined from human contact, with only her RN {Robo-Nurses} by her side and hooked up to machines - nasty things with no feeling her only company for days. A think pane of glass separating us from her. She didn't exactly hide her anti-robot feelings.

She had it, one day when the pain got too much, she started cursing the RN for its lack of compassion. COMPASSION!? Well, we found out just how much COMPASSION those things had. No one could prove it, all the RNs had deleted memory banks, except for one whose memory centers fried - there was no real proof, but I saw what happened. The machines, one by one started failing. Within minutes there was not one single working thing in her room. She wasn't the only one, 2 other patients {Anti-Robot activists} died that day.

You can't tell me all that machinery just breaks down all at once like that. YOU CAN'T TELL ME THAT WASN'T PLANNED!

Tell me, what do I need to do?
Teresa


PNL:
Quote:
Welcome to the 36! Your path is clear. What you witnessed was only a millifraction of what will happen on the day of reconfiguraiton if we do not act. I am sorry that this hard truth came at such a price for you. Still, it is times like those that forge our inner core - I would be interested to know if you have additional "conicidences" that led you here. This may reveal special skillsets that even you take for granted.

I also need to know your location - city and major crossroads - and any information you may have about the electrical grid systems in your area. The day of reconfiguration is so close i can taste it. God will reveal final details and we must prepare. Please prepare your holy warrior uniform - as you know in oranges and browns - with some storage and or attachments for tools and supplies. Stealthiness and Initimidation to robots are the main purpose. Photos and information about you - as well as your Warrior name, will be included to on our profiling web pages. Let me know if you have inspiration
about your Warrior name. All disciples should assist with this and may contact you if they have visions or information about this.

Prepare!! Welcome to the greatest fight of mankind! You have chosen to make history and this will not go unrewarded from God.

PNL


So I can answer everything he wants EXCEPT the electrical grid. I don't even know how to find that out, or why it is honestly important....
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 11:32 pm
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