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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] Who is Jan?/Col. Ackerson/sIII
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Avery1415
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 		From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
This from [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files where we were getting pretty OT:

truegent wrote:
Avery1415 wrote:
What is infertility in a science fiction universe?

You missed the point. It was stated as a FACT that Spartans are infertile and as such incapable of producing offspring. I asked for a basis for that assertion. If it can be proven that that is in fact a fact, then it would go a long way to disproving the 'Jan is the offspring of a Spartan' hypothesis.


Even if we assume that they are absolutly infertile, I doubt the process removes every trace of DNA from their bodies (which would be almost instantly fatal). I'm sure Jan's story does NOT begin, "once upon a time a mommy and daddy Spartan who loved each other very much...."

[SPEC]It, or J^2's story might, however, begin, "once upon a time a spartan and a scientist with a lot of really clean glassware.... Or it might not.

While all the META data (the trailer, the Halo2 release date, the use of the term Covenant) implies that we are playing with the HALO universe, I'm not going to hold my breath for absolute continuity one way or another. I used to freelance for a wargame company and have seen how thing evolve.

So, what we know in game:

J^2 is implied to be a big tough imposing guy who knows 96 ways to kill you with his left thumb. He can, apparently, disable a sensor array and do a controled burn on your police station using a ball point pen and swiss army knife while said police station is full of police. And he REALLY REALLY does not want his, or his daughter's DNA falling under general scrutiny.

Jan herself is an atractive teenaged girl who can hide on your hall ceiling, jump off a three story building and bluff her way through a high tech lie detector test, but has a pretty regular teenage girl kind of life otherwise.

I'll pretty much bet the farm that Jan and J^2 have things in their DNA that the rest of humanity does not, and that somewhere along the line those things came from the Spartan project, a competeing project, or, at least, a spartan-like project. I'll also bet that Jan and J^2 are not where they are in life with the approval of the folks that made their designer genes.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:18 am
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Kilroy

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 		I know that in the sound clips they talk about SSF being Special Special Forces, but could it also be the Spartan Special Forces??? You know the guys in the black armor and helmets like the M.C. That show up in the Halo 2 single player demo??

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:31 am
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Avatrix
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
truegent wrote:
You missed the point. It was stated as a FACT that Spartans are infertile and as such incapable of producing offspring. I asked for a basis for that assertion. If it can be proven that that is in fact a fact, then it would go a long way to disproving the 'Jan is the offspring of a Spartan' hypothesis.


I'm going to have to refute this. I don't have the link, because it's in that impossibly long thread with 90+ pages. But someone dug up the text. The Spartans are not infertile, they just have a highly suppressed sex drive. That means they can still produce a kid, they just have a really hard time getting in the mood.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:56 am
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GunsmithCat
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
Avery1415 wrote:


I'll pretty much bet the farm that Jan and J^2 have things in their DNA that the rest of humanity does not, and that somewhere along the line those things came from the Spartan project, a competeing project, or, at least, a spartan-like project. I'll also bet that Jan and J^2 are not where they are in life with the approval of the folks that made their designer genes.


I'll agree on Jan, disagree with J2. J2 can do all that stuff just with really mean black ops training, we've got nothing to indicate he is superhuman.

Jan, however, I just realized - we have an enormous clue that her DNA isn't quite right.

Why does J2 destroy the police station? I mean, they let her go. She's probably not in a lot of trouble. Not like anyone got hurt.

But, the police took blood, urine and hair samples. Standard procedure. Don't even need a warrant.

Someone didn't want that DNA recorded.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 9:01 am
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Avery1415
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
GunsmithCat wrote:
I'll agree on Jan, disagree with J2.


J^2 says that there is certain kinds of trouble that we can't get into. I take we to mean that "we're in this together" which at least implies that neither of the pair can afford a DNA scan.

Also, Durga immediatly tags J^2 as Jan's father and I would think that she would have said something slightly different if he was a custodian rather than someone more intimatly involved, though we should remember that Durga, in a way, only sees what she is shown. If the first time Jan appears in the net is when someone types up her birth certificate, well, that's what Durga is going to know.

Notice that Durga (nor anyone else) mentions her mother.

So, possibilities:
Jan is J^2's ward and is biologically unrelated.
Jan is J^2's daughter and has 50% DNA in common plus refits.
Jan is J^2's clone with a doner X in lieu of J^2's Y. (A classy way to hide your genetically engineered supersoldiers, no?)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:39 am
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GunsmithCat
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
Avery1415 wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
I'll agree on Jan, disagree with J2.


J^2 says that there is certain kinds of trouble that we can't get into. I take we to mean that "we're in this together" which at least implies that neither of the pair can afford a DNA scan.

Also, Durga immediatly tags J^2 as Jan's father and I would think that she would have said something slightly different if he was a custodian rather than someone more intimatly involved, though we should remember that Durga, in a way, only sees what she is shown. If the first time Jan appears in the net is when someone types up her birth certificate, well, that's what Durga is going to know.

Notice that Durga (nor anyone else) mentions her mother.

So, possibilities:
Jan is J^2's ward and is biologically unrelated.
Jan is J^2's daughter and has 50% DNA in common plus refits.
Jan is J^2's clone with a doner X in lieu of J^2's Y. (A classy way to hide your genetically engineered supersoldiers, no?)


I can't think of reading an instance where the genetic modifications of a SPARTAN program were passed from parent to child. They all seem to be based on taking young people and enhancing them scientifically.

It's clear that J2's unit is in charge of looking after Jan and potentially people like her. The idea that there is a military unit trained to have superkids and raise them seems a bit of a stretch to me. It implies some huge breeding program we just don't have any evidence for in the Haloverse, AFAIK.

More likely is that Jan is an enhanced teenager, an expirement. She's been removed from her real parents and is being raised by J2 and the military in order to keep her modifications a secret. Neither of their names are real, nor is their background (as implied by Durga).

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:05 am
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gheritt
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 		Is it possible Jan is NOT enhanced, but just well-trained? The only thing she does that I'd consider superhuman is making the three-story fall unharmed. Everything else can be explained by training, I think -- climbing to the ceiling to hide, beating (mostly) the PQI, etc.

But it sounds like Coral might be a low-gravity world -- Kamal (I think that's his name) says that his mother there takes jobs involving "much lifting." I hope this doesn't sound prejudiced, but that's not the sort of job I imagine for the average mother of a guy in his twenties. I know this is out there, but my suspicion is that Coral natives have weaker bones and muscles from low gravity (like what happens to our astronauts when they've been in zero-gravity for a long time), and Kamal's family, non-natives, arrived from somewhere else and were kind of like minor Supermen.

If Jan comes from a high-gravity world, or has simply spent a lot of time there, would she be capable of a three-story fall on Earth?

Edit: I guess my resistance to the idea of Jan being a supersoldier is that she's clearly allowed to live a pretty normal life, fraternize with normal people, etc. That seems like a ridiculously unneccessary risk for a secret military program.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:07 pm
Last edited by gheritt on Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Avery1415
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
GunsmithCat wrote:
It's clear that J2's unit is in charge of looking after Jan and potentially people like her. The idea that there is a military unit trained to have superkids and raise them seems a bit of a stretch to me. It implies some huge breeding program we just don't have any evidence for in the Haloverse, AFAIK.

More likely is that Jan is an enhanced teenager, an expirement. She's been removed from her real parents and is being raised by J2 and the military in order to keep her modifications a secret. Neither of their names are real, nor is their background (as implied by Durga).


If everything J^2 is doing is under official orders then I accept your analysis.

If they were official, though, I'd think that a high level military hacker could put whatever DNA sequence they wanted Jan to have in the police computer system, end of story. Also, given that the Spartans were developed on a rock in the middle of God-forsaken-nowhere, deep-space it seems unlikely to me that there would be an official plan where your experimental superhumans are raised to be fairly normal people in Anytown USA here on Earth.

Personally, I think he and Jan are part of something rogue at one level or another and that they are mostly keeping a low profile and playing it by ear. Of course my motto is, "I'm making this up as I go along" so I tend to assume everyone else is too.

Either way the question is who and why.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:09 pm
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Killer-of-Lawyers
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 		Actualy, I don't recall dumb AI's being made any differently than smart AI's, they just have limiters that keep them focused on their area of designed expertise. They can't think outside the box.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:18 pm
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Bobman
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 		I think people are gettting a little mixed up here.

The Spartan II program (MC in Halo) had no genetic modification at all. They pumped them full of seroids and growth hormone, bonded super-hard materials to their bones, and put synthetic nerve fibers in their nervous system that increased their reflexes and thinking speed. Notice that nowhere does it say they were geneticly modified. Dr. Halsey did pick the best children she could find, but she didn't change their genetic structure.

This is not spec, this is taken from the books. Here is where the [SPEC] starts:

I think the Spartan III program, or whatever Col. Ackerson is running, tried to create the same type of enhanced humans, but through genetic modification instead of through drugs and surgery. Growing denser bones, stronger muscles, longer nerve cells, ect. I don't think this would involve kidnapping children. From what I know of genetic engineering, modifying an existing person's genetic structure is much more difficult than modifying the genetic structure of an embryo. When you change the genetic structure of a full grown person, you have thousands of cells that all have their own copy of the person's DNA. When you deal with an embryo, you have 1 cell with 1 set of DNA.




Quote:
J^2 says that there is certain kinds of trouble that we can't get into. I take we to mean that "we're in this together" which at least implies that neither of the pair can afford a DNA scan.


I think this message means that if someone saw how Jan had been modified, they would start looking for the organization that did this. They would get to J^2, and from there they might be able to find the scientists that modified Jan, which would lead back to Ackerson and whoever is funding him.

Even if they couldn't find the rest of Ackerson's project, and just captured Jan, Ackerson's project would have lost their test subject. That would be a major setback.



*EDIT* Jeees, I need to type faster. 3 posts in the time it took me to write this one?

Gheritt and Avery both raised an intersting point. It is an interesting idea to have a hacker modify the recorded DNA structure, instead of burning the building down. However, there would still be the hair and blood sample. Someone might still be able to find those original samples. And it would be a little odd to have those samples "dissapear" or be stolen. The fire doesn't seem so suspicious.


Why would she be raised in a small town, to have a somewhat normal life? This does support the theory that something rogue is going on. However, I'm not quite ready to accept that. The mention of J^2's unit and the others that will get in trouble doesn't exactly support that.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:25 pm
Last edited by Bobman on Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GunsmithCat
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
Avery1415 wrote:
GunsmithCat wrote:
It's clear that J2's unit is in charge of looking after Jan and potentially people like her. The idea that there is a military unit trained to have superkids and raise them seems a bit of a stretch to me. It implies some huge breeding program we just don't have any evidence for in the Haloverse, AFAIK.

More likely is that Jan is an enhanced teenager, an expirement. She's been removed from her real parents and is being raised by J2 and the military in order to keep her modifications a secret. Neither of their names are real, nor is their background (as implied by Durga).


If everything J^2 is doing is under official orders then I accept your analysis.



But he's part of a unit. So now we have a whole rogue unit breeding superkids and keeping them secret? It really seems a stretch.



As for Spartan vs Spartan-III, we have very little evidence for either right?

I guess my support for Spartan leans because Jan doesn't seem very military. She's not treated like a soldier here. She doesn't seem like she's really going to pick up a rifle any time and go fight the Covenant. If she was an S-III, she'd be all about that.

An S-I though, is before the Covies even appear. They're not being set up for a specific task, they're just research.

However, I don't get why the S-I project would have to be so covert that if it got out "a lot people, people you don't even know" would get hurt.

Maybe genetic modification isn't quite so accepted yet? Maybe it would be a huge scandal if it came out, because without the Covenant people can't see why it would be needed?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:31 pm
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gheritt
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 		Hrm. Listening to Jan's WAVs again, I caught two things that might suggest Jan IS modified, despite my idea earlier:

1. From "pillow":
Frank: I think I got a face on security cam 18.
Officer: She's human.

Why would that be in question? The Covenant are the only aliens we know of in the Halo universe, and obviously don't look anything like us -- IS there some kind of soldier program that would make humans... not-human? Of course, it's weird that he says "she's human" at all because in "blip" before it, Frank says she's hot. Do early cyborg experiments exist in this universe? (Looking like Star Trek's Borg?) Is Jan one of the first of a new, less obvious kind of cyborg?

2. From "walkaway_girl":
Frank: That's the reason they call her the "walkaway girl" man.
Officer: For god's sake she's treed Frank, I'll just send a couple of cadets to the roof to take her in.
Frank: I think I can get a... yeah, yeah yeah. Here we go. There. The lovely and talented Miss James, courtesy security cam 45.

So she has a reputation for... what? Being able to escape things? How would she get this reputation? It doesn't seem like she's been in trouble with the police before.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:38 pm
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Bobman
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gheritt wrote:

1. From "pillow":
Frank: I think I got a face on security cam 18.
Officer: She's human.


I think he says "She's young."

gheritt wrote:

2. From "walkaway_girl":
Frank: That's the reason they call her the "walkaway girl" man.
Officer: For god's sake she's treed Frank, I'll just send a couple of cadets to the roof to take her in.
Frank: I think I can get a... yeah, yeah yeah. Here we go. There. The lovely and talented Miss James, courtesy security cam 45.


And I think he is refering to the line in pillow, "The local hearbreaker at my son's high school." Walkaway girl might refer to how she walks away from the geeks professing their love for her.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:48 pm
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mc.schroeder
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 		^^^
beat me to it

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:48 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		Re: From [PUZZLE] Hot Axons Wav Files - Spartans are Sterile
Jan = Boba Fett. 'Nuff said.


    Things we need to reconcile here:

    * Why did James say, "It's on me. My unit."? Unit connotes a team...so is this Team Dad, or is father and daughter just a cover ID?
    * Why did James say, "There are certain kinds of trouble we can't get in. Do you understand me? Because if we do..." Is that 'we' as in father and daughter, or 'we' as in Spartans/Jannisary?
    * Why did James say, "It's not your job?" Is that job as in parental role, or job as in what I do in exchange for financial compensation?
    * Would you name a Jannisary project member Jannisary? I would name her something normal.
    * Did James have to return to the Police station? He was excused into the waiting room after being told what kinds of tests Jan would have. Perhaps he snuck of then to go do his freelancing work as a fireman?


Obviously, Jan is part of some special program. Obviously, she has had some sort of physical enhancement (even if she is from a high-grav planet, the MP's have seen nothing like that before). So, the only question is whether it is [re-natal or an extension of the Spartan program.

Both have reasons to avoid being in trouble...if Jan is a first Pre-Natal Superwarrior, and they get in trouble, this becomes scientific data that suggests the program would create a bunch of powerful, immature teens...a one-way ticket to cut funding. If it's the SPARTAN program generation two, that's either black ops or even unsanctioned by ONI.

As SPARTAN goes, didn't we know that Atkerson has Halsey's data on the augmentations? I guess we don't know the definite timeframe (this clip could be from years after the others occured), but wasn't Halsey usually on Reach (meaning, isn't this probably Atkerson's project...sorry, I know so little about the Haloverse)?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:54 pm
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