unforum

[SageGrey]

Re: More Lewis Carroll allusions

[Aluminus]

I still think that the Red Queen refers to is the Statue of Liberty. The Iroquis name of the river pretty much seals it. But keep in mind where Meltzer is: He's in Montauk, which is on Long Island (I'm from there) North-East of NYC.
"Running the red queen's race" means climbing the stairs all the way to the top. You run as fast as you can, but you don't really go very far. You end up in the queen's crown, where you have easy access to her jewels.
Lutwide call the queen a decrepit corpse, because as some others pointed out in this thread, the Statue is made of copper, which was originally reddish, but has since decayed (corroded) into the dull green color we see today.
The looking glass means the windows of the crown, or some mirrors if they happen to be there, and the crown jewels could be the lights of the city at night, or some exhibit in the crown.

Which really reaffirms the hypothesis that there is somehow access to Rapture in the statue of Liberty. If you have to go to the top of the statue, just to get access to a bathysphere at the base, that would really be running the red queen's race.

Now this really makes things more interesting, because if Lutwidge (probably not his real name) had been leaving "Looking Glass"-type clues since the 40's, and he left this recording for someone to find, why mention south by west? Did Lutwidge specifically target Meltzer? Kidnap his daughter to lure him to Rapture?

[einzelwolf]

[Dread Cthulhu]

That's awfully literal, given the tenor of Ludwidge's comments.

Then there is the small matter of history -- the Statue of Liberty was put into place in 1886. While Ryan is powerful and wealthy, I find it a little difficult to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that he managed to put in a submarine bay into Liberty Isle when no one was looking.

I do have to grant that there *IS* potent symbolism, although "red queen" would be an imperfect fit on Lady Liberty. From the Wikipedia, prior to einzelwolf's quote:

"The classical appearance (Roman stola, sandals, facial expression) derives from Libertas, ancient Rome's goddess of freedom from slavery, oppression, and tyranny. Her raised right foot is on the move. This symbol of Liberty and Freedom is not standing still or at attention in the harbor, it is moving forward, as her left foot tramples broken shackles at her feet, in symbolism of the United States' wish to be free from oppression and tyranny.[11] Since the 1940s, it has been claimed that the seven spikes on the crown epitomize the Seven Seas and seven continents.[12] Her torch signifies enlightenment. The tablet in her hand represents knowledge and shows the date of the United States Declaration of Independence, in roman numerals, July IV, MDCCLXXVI. "

I can understand why Ryan would *want* to work the Statue of Liberty into his scheme. In fact, it may be a useful way-station on the route to Rapture:

"Except for a period of time between 11 September, 2001, and 4 July 2009[30], the interior of the statue has been open to visitors. Visitors arrive by ferry and climb the circular single-file stairs (limited by the available space) inside the metallic statue, exposed to the sun out in the harbor (the interior reaching extreme temperatures, particularly in summer), and about 30 people at a time can fit up into the crown. This provides a broad view of New York Harbor (it faces the ocean) through 25 windows, the largest approximately 18" (46 cm) in height. The view does not, therefore, include the skyline of New York City, except through the smallest windows on the left side of the crown. The wait outside regularly exceeds three hours, excluding the wait for ferries and ferry tickets.

As it has been a tourist site for the whole of the time Rapture was built, it would be hard to imagine they were able to put in a submarine pen. But it may be a way-station for pilgrims en route to Rapture to find their next clue.

The other thing I would have to point out is that there is a heavy influence from Lewis Carroll. From the Looking Glass:

"Humpty appears in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking-Glass, where he discusses semantics and pragmatics with Alice.

"I don't know what you mean by 'glory,'" Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't – till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument,'" Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master – that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.
"They've a temper, some of them – particularly verbs, they're the proudest – adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs – however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

I suspect that, by the time we're done, we will be awash in clues that had multiple meanings.

[einzelwolf]

[Dread Cthulhu]

[einzelwolf]

[Dread Cthulhu]

[einzelwolf]

[Dread Cthulhu]

[Dread Cthulhu]

Three-fold key

[Guest]

This is completely off the topic of what you guys are saying, but has anyone noticed that there is a corpse that looks a lot like the First Big Daddy at the very start of the third level in BioShock 1, Neptune's Wharf(or similar to that name, definitely had Neptune in it) I think it was called. Anyway it was the level right after the Medical Pavilion and to the left of the gene bank there is what I think resembles the First Big Daddy, as it is portrayed in BioShock 2.

[catgirl789]

Any images you see of the first big daddy are place holders until they come up with a more personalized image, or they were the last time I checked.

Edit: just looked at the wikia for something in the sea, and found out that "Warden Yard" (mentioned in those newspaper clippings) is an anagram for Andrew Ryan.

[SageGrey]

new message from Inman on the machine, and a letter, not finished, to Celeste.

looks like Celeste is a "red herring" to Inman. She is the only one that came off that mountain, so she is the only one alive that knows what really happened...

as for the letter, it's an explanation to Celeste that no matter what she says, Meltzer will not stop looking for his daughter through Lutwidge. He breaks down at the end of the letter, and it trails off...

a thought occured, it may be nothing, but with the more frequent misspellings in his letters, could there be a cypher in there? i haven't toyed ith it much, but it seems that there could be enough for a short message, or something...

[FSURobbie]