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ARG Research
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lucasgarofalo
Kilroy

Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 2

 		 ARG Research
Hi there,
I am a Brazilian designer and researcher in the field of games and ARGs.
I am making my master graduation on ARGs at USP (São Paulo University).
Then I ask you to help me, answering this simple form Wink

https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHl3MTgtWXlPR283UExsNEFveFVMbXc6MA..

Or answering here in the forum:

1.) In your opinion, what is more important in an ARG?
a) the story
b) the challenges and puzzles
c) the interaction with characters of the game and live events
d) the interaction with the community

2.) Do you believed that the story of any ARG was real at any moment?

3.) Did you already found/saw ARGs where they did not exist?

4.) Had an ARG invaded your privacy in any undesired or not allowed way?

5.) Had you already influenced by an ARG to acquire or to consume a product that it promoted?

6.) There be an audience for pay-per-play ARGs?

7.) What in your opinion takes a person or a team to produce a grassroot ARGs?
a) to learn how to develop an ARG to be able to sell similar projects to other companies
b) to learn how to develop an ARG to try to work in companies that develops ARGs or advertising agencies
c) the simple passion for the ARG universe and the will to be on the other side of the curtain

8.) Do you believe that is an increasing trend of ARGs the less adherence to the rule of "This is not the Game"?
a) generally yes
b) no
c) yes for the promotional games, not for the grassroot ones

9.)Do you believe that an ARG is capable to engage people in questions political, environmental or social issues?

10.)If you have answered yes in question 9, this engagement will be:
a) conscientious
b) unconscious

PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:12 pm
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Daeld
Unfettered


Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 308
Location: Australia

 		Sua survey é muito interessante meu irmão brasileiro!

But I am replying specifically for number 6, but here are my thoughts about the rest (written on the forum to stimulate discussion)

Quote:
1.) In your opinion, what is more important in an ARG?
a) the story
b) the challenges and puzzles
c) the interaction with characters of the game and live events
d) the interaction with the community

I think if you can develop an ARG that involves all these points you have a winner. However, I think that the most imporatnt aspect is to have a storry that brings the players and the puzzles together and provides a motivation to keep going (otherwise you just have a puzzle trail). So, although it would not be an ARG without challenges and puzzles, my answer is (a). However, (a) and (b) have to be connected in my opinion. Also, I think most PMs hope to have (c) and (d) happening.

Quote:
2.) Do you believed that the story of any ARG was real at any moment?

Not yet!

Quote:
3.) Did you already found/saw ARGs where they did not exist?

I do this all the time! Embarassed

Quote:
4.) Had an ARG invaded your privacy in any undesired or not allowed way?

No. (And I hope it stays that way! Confused )

Quote:
5.) Had you already influenced by an ARG to acquire or to consume a product that it promoted?

No.

Quote:
6.) There be an audience for pay-per-play ARGs?

I think this would be a great shame. I think that you would loose the spirit of the ARG if this were to happen. I am sure that PMs would love it. I recently PMed an ARG that after about a month had over 11000 views on the forum. At one particlar day there were almost 1000 views on one of the blogs (ie 1000 unique IP addresses). However, there were only about 30 people that left a message as was requested as part of the game. This demonstrates what is often noted by PMs, that there are often many more Lurkers than Players. Many players will confirm this also. I think if you suddenly had to pay for being involved in the ARG, you would decrease that number further (ie from 3% active involvement to almost 0). Further I think most ARG players would shun a game that expected them to pay, as it would be difficult to make a financial commitment to a game that does not necessarily give a start/end date. I wonder if players would then not want to post on uF because they would not want lurkers to get info they did not pay for. I think this would destroy the community spirit of ARG. If the game was time-limitted, the players who became sick during the game (and were therefore not able to play) may feel cheated and would certainly want their money back. Then you come to the question of how much would you charge (demand is already very low, so the price would have to be set so low that you probably would not be able to make it anywhere near profitable. An interesting comercial game is the Ennead, who is currently asking for donations or associate producers, however, these people have also put in a lot of money to produce a web series with a number of actors and crew. Again, I would not think that the players would provide much towards the running costs. If you want to make money from your ARG, I would imagine that this would have to come from doing a deal with an advertising company to promote a product or service, and not from the players themselves.

Last of all, when one buys a computer game, one can play it again and again. An ARG, well this is harder to do, especially if the puzzles/challenges are not set up in a clear trail and there is no way you could do on-going character interactions. So, to ask players to pay for a "single-use-only" ARG would be, in my opinion, a death sentence for your game before it even starts.

Quote:
7.) What in your opinion takes a person or a team to produce a grassroot ARGs?
a) to learn how to develop an ARG to be able to sell similar projects to other companies
b) to learn how to develop an ARG to try to work in companies that develops ARGs or advertising agencies
c) the simple passion for the ARG universe and the will to be on the other side of the curtain

In my experience it was (c). I love the concept of ARG but I don't expect to be quitting my day job any time soon! Wink (I suspect that more serious and dedicated PMs can genuinely consider a and b).

Quote:
8.) Do you believe that is an increasing trend of ARGs the less adherence to the rule of "This is not the Game"?
a) generally yes
b) no
c) yes for the promotional games, not for the grassroot ones

Certainly (c), which is a shame I think.

Quote:
9.)Do you believe that an ARG is capable to engage people in questions political, environmental or social issues?

Yes!

Quote:
10.)If you have answered yes in question 9, this engagement will be:
a) conscientious
b) unconscious

I think ARGs are a great tool for education: you have a captive audience who is interested in the story and the challenges. If you wanted to, you could easily modify this for educational purposes, whether they be for the purposes of schools, activism, etc the principle is the same.
The engagement is both conscious and unconscious.

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:46 am
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England

 		I'd just like to have a discussion about one of the points you made, specifically regarding question 6.
Daeld wrote:
Last of all, when one buys a computer game, one can play it again and again. An ARG, well this is harder to do, especially if the puzzles/challenges are not set up in a clear trail and there is no way you could do on-going character interactions. So, to ask players to pay for a "single-use-only" ARG would be, in my opinion, a death sentence for your game before it even starts.

While this is true of many home media, it's not so true for other experiences. When you buy a cinema ticket, you'll only see that movie once. If you buy a theme park ticket, you'll only get that experience once. There's a whole list of "single-use-only" items that count as experiences, lasting at max a few days. An ARG can last for weeks or even months, and paying for a one-off is certainly not something that nobody would do. I think the reason people expect these things to be free is simply because they're used to it being free. Unfortunately, that's a hard opinion to reverse, but not impossible.

On a related note, yes it is hard to create a repeatable ARG, but I don't want to write it off as impossible. Not saying I've come up with any ideas myself, but something might just be out there undiscovered...

PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:28 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality
Quote:
8.) Do you believe that is an increasing trend of ARGs the less adherence to the rule of "This is not the Game"?
a) generally yes
b) no
c) yes for the promotional games, not for the grassroot ones


This question does not make sense.

TINAG is a mantra for the characters in the story (i.e. they do NOT know they are fictional - to them the life they are living is REAL).

We all know (I hope) that WE are playing a game (else why don't we call the police to report a murder or a kidnapping, etc).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:19 pm
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thebruce
Dances With Wikis


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 6899
Location: Kitchener, Ontario
Agent Lex wrote:
There's a whole list of "single-use-only" items that count as experiences, lasting at max a few days. An ARG can last for weeks or even months, and paying for a one-off is certainly not something that nobody would do. I think the reason people expect these things to be free is simply because they're used to it being free. Unfortunately, that's a hard opinion to reverse, but not impossible.

I don't think anyone should forgo the idea as well that once paid and playing, there's also the option for swag - and regardless of whether it's high or low quality, anything physical they receive has the added value of being tied to an experience which, hopefully, they loved and enjoyed. So while pay-to-play doesn't guarantee swag (dependent on the parameters of the signing up and plans for the game of course), there's certainly that hope that not only would you get an experience to remember, but something to go with it. For grassroots args, any kind of income would certainly help boost the potential to include physical memorabilia and costly shipping. For corporate ARGs or known properties, it could potentially be a tougher sell.

I think whether grassroots or corporate, pay-to-play would need to offer a quality experience, but physical swag certainly adds to the value - for existing properties, swag value has an "official collectible" aspect, and for grassroots games, swag I think ties much more closely to the memorable experience. But overall, I think if the experience is there, pay-to-play can work, if done right.

konamouse wrote:
TINAG is a mantra for the characters in the story (i.e. they do NOT know they are fictional - to them the life they are living is REAL).

We all know (I hope) that WE are playing a game (else why don't we call the police to report a murder or a kidnapping, etc).

I know I said this before and got some critical response, but I think in a sense TINAG can also apply to players, though granted not by its official definition. Moreso just in the way players treat the game. Ultimately it still comes down to the PMs and how they have characters react to players, but just as characters can't know they're just part of a game, we generally see players - who know they're playing a game - treat the characters as real (or however they define themselves), essentially helping enforce/support the TINAG idea. Sure, there aren't technically any rules in this media, and they can't generally be forced on players, but usually we'll find that players guide each other in that 'you know, you don't go up to a character and say "hey, you're a fictional character in a game I'm playing, did you know that?"'. Of course, if they do, the PMs decide how to react within the TINAG philosophy, but my point is: while players know they're playing a game, while in the game world they don't treat it as a game. Again, generally speaking.

Maybe that's not "TINAG" definitively, maybe there's another term or philosophy for it pertaining to players, but I think there is this similar mindset that applies to community while within the gamespace that there is for the characters played by the PMs within the gamespace. For the former, it's more of a general etiquette, for the latter it's more of a philosophy.
Or something like that. =)
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:59 pm
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enaxor
I Have No Life

Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 2395

 		TINAG works well with both Kona's and thebruce's definition. I also see where it can be used for the PM as well. If the game is designed in a way where it's difficult for the players to know if that website they just found is real or an ingame fake. The obscuring of that line between real or not, is for me, the definition of TINAG.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:19 pm
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lucasgarofalo
Kilroy

Joined: 31 May 2009
Posts: 2

 		I understand the TINAG as how the ARG blur the line between fiction and reality. But I believe most player know the stories of the ARGs isn't real ant they know they are playing a game too.
Then the TINAG effect occurs more in the beggining of games when the whole thing is not well defined. We could call TINAF (This is not Fiction)? hahaha

In that sense a believe mainstream ARGs like Why so Serious? don't have that effect, because it begins in the oficial movie website, and no one realy believes Batman exists.

But even when everyone know they are playing and everything is fiction, most players will pretend that isn't a fiction, like Jane McGonigal write in some papers about Cloudmakers and The Beast, because the design of the game need that suspension of the disbelief from the players.

Sorry for my poor english Sad

PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:30 pm
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Syncopal
Decorated


Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 199
Location: Look Behind You!

 		Agent Lex Wrote:

Quote:
Daeld wrote:
Last of all, when one buys a computer game, one can play it again and again. An ARG, well this is harder to do, especially if the puzzles/challenges are not set up in a clear trail and there is no way you could do on-going character interactions. So, to ask players to pay for a "single-use-only" ARG would be, in my opinion, a death sentence for your game before it even starts.

While this is true of many home media, it's not so true for other experiences. When you buy a cinema ticket, you'll only see that movie once. If you buy a theme park ticket, you'll only get that experience once. There's a whole list of "single-use-only" items that count as experiences, lasting at max a few days. An ARG can last for weeks or even months, and paying for a one-off is certainly not something that nobody would do. I think the reason people expect these things to be free is simply because they're used to it being free. Unfortunately, that's a hard opinion to reverse, but not impossible.

Quote:
On a related note, yes it is hard to create a repeatable ARG, but I don't want to write it off as impossible. Not saying I've come up with any ideas myself, but something might just be out there undiscovered...



I'm still fairly new to this but have been researching and enjoying the whole idea of it and hope to possibly in the far future PM... I had a question about pay for play as well...

What if in a game a clue was say 'in' a performance that people had to pay for? Or in a museum that you had to pay to get in... or if you order a special drink in a bar you get a secret message ..... is that considered pay to play?

EDIT: Lucas I'm sorry I don't feel I have experienced enough to answer most of your questions... if this is still up in a month or two i will definitly return!

PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:58 pm
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		[quote="Syncopal]
What if in a game a clue was say 'in' a performance that people had to pay for? Or in a museum that you had to pay to get in... or if you order a special drink in a bar you get a secret message ..... is that considered pay to play?[/quote]

Well, that would be paying the person/company for the play/museum or the drink. The money wouldn't be going to the PM. Unless the ARG was to promote that play/museum or the bar where you buy the drink.

During ARGFest Las Vegas (the first Festquest) we had to get a players card from the Hard Rock Casino, but that was free. We also had to get a pack of matches from the gift shop (free).

During ARGFest San Francisco (2007) we got free chocolate samples. And we had to get flattened pennies (those were 50 cents) from the pier.

I've sent items to a character or another player (paying for postage). To me that is not "pay to play" but just part of the game and not a big deal.

Pay to play is more about money going to the PM. There was a game (Virtuquest) where you were given the opportunity to "donate" to some cause in the fictional city. That was how they wrote in "pay to play" so it was a volunteer donation. However, there was some serious negative vibe from the game so you might want to read the accounting in the forum (sorry, don't have the link handy).
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:14 am
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Syncopal
Decorated


Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 199
Location: Look Behind You!

 		konamouse said:

Quote:
The money wouldn't be going to the PM. Unless the ARG was to promote that play/museum or the bar where you buy the drink.


Thanks for reply konamouse! And I hope I'm not hijacking Lucas's thread or bringing up stuff covered elsewhere. So if you nice mods needs to bounce me to a new thread... Please do so if you feel you must. Thanks!

I see what you're saying... Although, I guess what I am kinda more asking is what if it was to promote a bar/museaum/play ect... Or really to promote a city.

Let's say your a visitor in a new city... and lets say there's a permemnant trailhead that is 'rumoured' to be somewhere... From that trailhead there is a decision to be made... two trails...:

1. an ongoing one for locals which which send them throughout the city to find really hole in the wall places bars/restaurants/museaums/points of interest they would probably never have gone...

2. the other one is updated weekly for tourists which would send them not only to famous historical/city spots as well as current local happenings.

The point of this is obviouly to promote each of the spots, and they can be rotated so it is a 'new' experience each weekend with each of the spots paying for the 'traffic' but once again the players might be responsible for museum admission fees, ordering a 'special' drink... ect...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:33 am
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konamouse
Official uF Dietitian


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 8010
Location: My own alternate reality

 		That is a pretty cool idea - trailhead for a trail through a city (for visitors).

Smithsonian did a little "ARG" last year (we got a visit from a henna covered body builder at ARGFest Boston) with subsequent activities for followers to create ART and then it was put on display.

Your idea wouldn't be an ARG as much as an extended experience and Trail to follow, a little like Geocaching meets Guidebook. "Players" could choose to enter said destination (museum, restaurant, etc) or not.

During ARGFest Boston we got a trail and the last clue made us think about the USS Constitution. The next day a group of us made the trek out to the museum/ship and took a look around both. We would not have gone out there if we didn't think it was part of an ARG (and think about what we would have missed for not seeing it). However, we are a unique audience and such a clue would not work for the typical tourist. It would have to be presented in a totally different manner.
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r u a Sammeeeee? I am Forever!

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:53 pm
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Agent Lex
Entrenched


Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 1188
Location: No longer London, still in England
konamouse wrote:
During ARGFest Las Vegas (the first Festquest) we had to get a players card from the Hard Rock Casino, but that was free. We also had to get a pack of matches from the gift shop (free).

During ARGFest San Francisco (2007) we got free chocolate samples. And we had to get flattened pennies (those were 50 cents) from the pier.

To offer one last example: at this year's Festquest, each team (after solving a number of puzzles) had to go to a bar in town and order a special drink for a clue, pretty much as you describe Syncopal. However, the drinks were all ridiculously fictional ones (I forget the names now) so obviously no drinks were given or money exchanged. However, since all teams had to meet at the bar to collect the clues, they ended up buying drinks from the place anyway.

That was a cool place, actually...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:20 pm
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Daeld
Unfettered


Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 308
Location: Australia

 		In the ennead (see [url]enneadarg.wikidot.com[/url]) the PM is (was?) using the game to promote (& extend) a web series on YouTube. While the game and the web series is free, he has asked for donations to "help pay" for the characters (on account of a low budget) and to make it more likely for a second season to be made. Again, here we have a volunteer-based system of donations. Some of the donation amounts have certain "rewards" associated with them. Eg, a certain large amount (I think it was $500) will get your name at the start of the next episode with the title of "Associate Producer". Laughing

As much as I enjoy the series/ARG, I'm not so narcissistic as to want at the start credits:

Quote:
Daeld
Associate Producer
Shocked

To date only one person has actually done this (And his name is now long-forgotten!) Still that's an extra $500 with which to purchase some food for a starving PM!
Rolling Eyes

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:48 pm
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Syncopal
Decorated


Joined: 18 Jul 2009
Posts: 199
Location: Look Behind You!

 		konamouse said:

Quote:
Your idea wouldn't be an ARG as much as an extended experience and Trail to follow, a little like Geocaching meets Guidebook


I see your point here... hmm...Thank all of you for your thoughts! I'm just going to play as many as I can in the meanwhile... but it's an idea I've been thinking about for some time now...

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:11 pm
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