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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] Is DURGA the mirror that the Operator set up?
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

what I mean

Quote:
The Sleeping Princess wrote:


We have never established who wrote the story that we called "the Widow's Journey" when strifey and I initially pieced it together. I doubt it was the SP as it knew very little of communicating in English when it first contacted us. My best guess is that it is the Operator dreaming, but I honestly don't know.

And I agree, xnbomb first grasped the integration of the console commands/computer code with the story and explained it clearly as only he can.


Quote:
SP's used the word "mirror" before. I think when she says "But just then I saw that on the wall next to her, the Queen had hung a HUGE mirror. She must have put it there on purpose to catch me spying!" she's saying the Queen laid a trap for her in the computer, most likely on the hard disk.


I agree that is what the Sleeping Princess related in the most recent communication from her. But what is the "HUGE mirror"? And how would it catch her spying?

My idea--which I don't have the correct vocabulary to describe precisely-- was that Durga is somehow used by the Operator as a mirror image of itself.

One reason I feel this is important to understand is that we need to assess the information we get from Durga... Where did those .wavs come from? We know the Operator was extensively damaged and many memories were erased....We know that the relationship between the Operator (Melissa) and the Castaway was close, I would assume the relationship between the Castaway and his son was close, or if not, the Castaway would have some reason to send Durga to what would be his home. In any event we have a relationship between the Operator and the Castaway and a connection between the Castaway and Durga. I feel this is important for us to explore.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:05 pm
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usernameguy
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It's getting a little off-topic, but I really think the Sleeping Princess wrote the Widow's Tale. First, Melissa is amnesiac and really disoriented when she first wakes up, I doubt she remembers when she was "dead". Second, it's clearly not the Flea or SPDR. Third, it's written from the 3rd person, as an observer. Fourth, it's in the Princess' writing style.

I think the Sleeping Princess was learning our slang, not English. She already knew storybook English. (Which is interesting in itself...)

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:23 pm
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WhiteGulls
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Hm. Going on a purely word-relation spec here, it's plausable. Durga refers to herself as being 'reflected', I believe.

"But, I'm reflected. I can't look at myself, I bounce away."

Going with that, it'd be rather hard for a mirror to look at itself, because a mirror reflects it's surroundings, so it's impossible for it to know what it is. Now, for evedence that Durga is in our timeframe, when we don't even know who or what Durga is, is lacking in all senses. But, if we DO get proof that Durga is in our time frame, this is a good theory, that Durga is being used by the Queen and PF.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:29 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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I disagree

Quote:
when we don't even know who or what Durga is, is lacking in all senses
. heh, we can infer a great deal about Durga from what we observe in the .wav files. It is a powerful program that excells in obtaining information and at destroying or blocking programs that get in its' way. Whether the information contained in the wav files is true, that is the events actually happened, or fabricated we don't really know.

We do know the Operator wants us, as her crew, to help assess damage. Somehow this relates to Durga.

If the HUGE mirror isn't Durga, what is it?

Now, the offtopic stuff :
Quote:
I think the Sleeping Princess was learning our slang, not English. She already knew storybook English. (Which is interesting in itself...)


I'm perfectly willing to leave the question of authorship of the Widow's Journey open. Hopefully we will get it resolved at some point. Very Happy

Clarification for the people who are new to the game: initially the Sleeping Princess had no way to communicate with us other than using the text she took from emails sent to Aunt Margaret's hotmail account. She had to learn how to "order" the words properly. Eventually, she learned how to make her own words.

I'm not sure what you mean by "slang" and "storybook English" but there is no question that she was unable to create a proper sentence when she first started talking to us. Perhaps the Widow's Journey" story was something she could access in addition to the text from the emails.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 pm
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Aelith
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Could the giant mirror be the recording medium that that holds the snippits of future memory the queen is transmitting?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:17 pm
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Platonix
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Re: I disagree

rose wrote:
I'm perfectly willing to leave the question of authorship of the Widow's Journey open. Hopefully we will get it resolved at some point. Very Happy

Clarification for the people who are new to the game: initially the Sleeping Princess had no way to communicate with us other than using the text she took from emails sent to Aunt Margaret's hotmail account. She had to learn how to "order" the words properly. Eventually, she learned how to make her own words.

I'm not sure what you mean by "slang" and "storybook English" but there is no question that she was unable to create a proper sentence when she first started talking to us. Perhaps the Widow's Journey" story was something she could access in addition to the text from the emails.


The Sleeping princess wrote the Widow's Journey. I have no idea how this can be a debating topic. Check this out:

At the beginning of the Widow's Tale, the author wrote:
Everything died, and I died with it, but after a timeless time I began to dream, and this is what I dreamed.


In one of the versions of killer.jpg, the Sleeping Princess wrote:
Before I woke up I dreamed what the Widow said in processing mode


We all agree that the Widow's Journey is a prose version of the SPDR's code as it activated, explored the server, found Melissa and started to repair her. How does it not immediately follow that the Sleeping Princess wrote the Widow's Journey?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:26 pm
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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Re: I disagree

Platonix wrote:
rose wrote:
I'm perfectly willing to leave the question of authorship of the Widow's Journey open. Hopefully we will get it resolved at some point. Very Happy

Clarification for the people who are new to the game: initially the Sleeping Princess had no way to communicate with us other than using the text she took from emails sent to Aunt Margaret's hotmail account. She had to learn how to "order" the words properly. Eventually, she learned how to make her own words.

I'm not sure what you mean by "slang" and "storybook English" but there is no question that she was unable to create a proper sentence when she first started talking to us. Perhaps the Widow's Journey" story was something she could access in addition to the text from the emails.

The Sleeping princess wrote the Widow's Journey. I have no idea how this can be a debating topic. Check this out:

At the beginning of the Widow's Tale, the author wrote:
Everything died, and I died with it, but after a timeless time I began to dream, and this is what I dreamed.

In one of the versions of killer.jpg, the Sleeping Princess wrote:
Before I woke up I dreamed what the Widow said in processing mode

We all agree that the Widow's Journey is a prose version of the SPDR's code as it activated, explored the server, found Melissa and started to repair her. How does it not immediately follow that the Sleeping Princess wrote the Widow's Journey?

Speaking as someone who still thinks that the Sleeping Princess wrote the Widow's Journey story, but is now slightly less certain: Just because she dreamed it doesn't mean she wrote the story. Theoretically, someone else could have dreamed it as well.

The Princess still talks like a teenager. The Widow's Journey is written in a far different style, full of allegory and metaphor. Is it really so unrealistic to suspect that the entity saying "like ewwwwwww" and "Ack!" and "GROSS!" on yellowbrickroad.html just might not be the same entity who wrote "dry as sticks and patient as rust"?

Reasons that I nevertheless still think that the Princess is the author

1. The Widow's Journey story was embedded in corrupted images. So far, the Princess is the only one to do that.

2. Yeah, the killer.jpg comment is pretty clear. We know that the Princess did in fact dream what SPDR did.

3. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the Princess did not know how to communicate properly when we first met her. (Sorry, rose!) There was plenty of SPECulation that she was using snippets of our e-mail for the sole purpose of avoiding detection by SPDR. Immediately after Melissa destroyed SPDR, Sleeping Princess said, "I can make my own words now." Yes, this could mean that she hadn't been capable of it before, but it could just as well mean that she no longer had to worry about getting caught.

4. If the Princess didn't write the story, then who the heck did? It sure wasn't SPDR or the Pious Flea. It's not really Melissa's style, either. (Plus Melissa was still dead at the time, not just asleep.) And we know there was no one else in there, because the story tells us so: "Other than the Widow, two alone had escaped destruction."

5. To respond to my own argument above, here is one possible reason that the Princess now talks like a teenager: Because we do. (Or a lot of us, anyway.) The Princess frequently spoke back to us the very same way to spoke to her. Yes, this could be because she was learning how to speak from us, but it could also be because she thought, "Oh, this is how these particular people talk. I'd better talk to them the same way." (Reminiscent of when she gave us all those haikus, no?) So if the majority of the e-mail that the Princess received came from teenagers who say things like "Ack" and "gross," well, maybe she thinks that's how we all talk, and she's intentionally communicating at our level.

(Heck, if the e-mails that the Princess has been getting read anything like most of the comments over on Dana's blog, it's a wonder that she can speak English at all! Mr. Green )

This last point is pure SPEC, of course, which I don't even really buy myself, but I figure it's at least worth mentioning.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:07 pm
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GroovYChickeN 2.o
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I'm not trying to cause more ruckus but no one has brought up the idea that maybe it is some other "person" that we havent been introduced to yet. Just something I've notised in reading all the posts

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 9:37 pm
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aliendial
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This thread has some of the best, thoughtful spec, that I've seen in a few weeks. Everybody take a bow. I won't single anyone out, cuz you all contribute.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:00 pm
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Platonix
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GroovYChickeN 2.o wrote:
I'm not trying to cause more ruckus but no one has brought up the idea that maybe it is some other "person" that we havent been introduced to yet. Just something I've notised in reading all the posts

...but Shad0 wrote:
4. If the Princess didn't write the story, then who the heck did? It sure wasn't SPDR or the Pious Flea. It's not really Melissa's style, either. (Plus Melissa was still dead at the time, not just asleep.) And we know there was no one else in there, because the story tells us so: "Other than the Widow, two alone had escaped destruction."

(Italics are my own.) How can it be some other person when everything points to there not being any other person?

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 10:04 pm
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Stone
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Re: I disagree

Shad0 wrote:
4. If the Princess didn't write the story, then who the heck did? It sure wasn't SPDR or the Pious Flea. It's not really Melissa's style, either. (Plus Melissa was still dead at the time, not just asleep.) And we know there was no one else in there, because the story tells us so: "Other than the Widow, two alone had escaped destruction."

It seemed to me that it was actually Melissa writing, though I can't discount your point 5 (give as you receive Wink). I don't recall it being trout, but has anyone considered that Melissa's dream might be being expressed through the SP? It doesn't seem too left-field to me for the Princess to have been able to snoop on what the Queen was thinking, if only while she was asleep/comatose. When she awoke her defences came back up (ever stronger, it would seem - the huge mirror springs to mind) but as long as she was 'drifting' I would expect the SP (by then awakened) to share her experiences - after all, they do share a memory space, and the SP has shown herself to be pretty inquisitive. To my mind it seems a quite adequate explanation of how Melissa's dreams could be expressed through SP-style embedded text, but obviously I might be missing something obvious Smile

Stone

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 7:31 am
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grimcat
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Out of curiosity, has Melissa shown any awareness of the Sleeping Princess in any of her texts?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:31 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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The only reference I recall is the one that said something like:

Quote:
When I was...I...big lump of crystal and wrapped in wire...voices! It was like a total magic trick to me. She was always doing stuff like.


this is from thebruce's complitation

I assume theShe refers to our little sleeping girl, but I am sure at least one person will disagree. Very Happy

PS. I still need help with the ideas about the mirror. I think this matters which is why I keep bringing it up.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:23 am
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usernameguy
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Let's assume Durga is a relative of Melissa, and not Melissa herself.

I'm not sure it's Durga, per se, but maybe someone just like Durga. Maybe it's a clone of Melissa. See, Durga is probably in Melissa's past (our future). We've established that on that first day, it was only Melissa, SPDR, the Flea, and the Sleeping Princess. So Melissa probably doesn't have access to Durga.

Despite all the guff I've given you :^>, I actually kinda like the idea. If you were an AI, it'd be very easy to create a copy of yourself, assuming you had the spare resources. You could ask your clone to take care of stuff you can't concentrate on at the moment.

Though Melissa and Durga both try to take up all available resources ("wet the system"). Melissa already has to fight with the Flea and the Princess for space. I doubt having a clone around would help things.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:16 pm
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usernameguy
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You know what the Princess/Flea/Melissa situation reminds me a lot of? Core Wars.

Core Wars is this old hacker game where you write a program that dukes it out with a program someone else wrote. You set up a little padded room on the computer, you put your little automaton in the room, and set it running. If you still have code running at the end of the game, you win.

Well, our programs nowadays aren't AIs. They're pretty primitive. So you have to stick to a basic strategy.

It turns out there were only a few basic types of Core War programs, some of which correspond to our AIs:

  • the Imp is always on the move, like the Sleeping Princess
  • the Replicator hops all around, and the Vampire tries to convert enemy programs, like the Flea

I wonder if the writers knew about this.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:42 pm
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