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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] The Durga<->Melissa connection through time
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raw19
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 61
Extrasonic wrote:
Capt. Greene doesn't seem surprised when Melissa says she might be compromised - the good Captain simply asks "When could it have been introduced?" This tells me that the idea that an AI can get infected isn't news. The piggybacking comment, though, gets the "can they do that?" treatment. I dunno, that's just my interpretation.


yeah, I can see that. But I don't think she was surprised that an AI can get infected, I think she's surprised that the Covenant have the ability to infect a Human AI.

Extrasonic wrote:
I'm in complete agreement with you that Durga got on to Jersey's computer remotely and wasn't physically planted there. You think she came from the Apocolypso, I think she came from a virtual cage in the military base when the power went out (hence the chasing by the two Navy sentinels).


That's a good theory, and definitely possible. We just don't have enough evidence right now to prove whether either of us are correct.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:58 am
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Sep7imus
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 		I'll just jump in without specifically quoting anyone (bad form, Iknow, but I just read through the whole thread again and I'mn ot about to go hunting for particular quotes).

First, it seems quite clear that Durga is connected to Melissa/Operator in some way, even though Durga is in the future and Melissa/Operator is in the present (on the ilb website). That much is clear since they seem to be hearing "voices" from each other. (The question of how Durga is connected to Melissa/Operator in the future is not as clear, however, leading to all of the debates about how to get AIs from one place to another.)

Second, I find it curious that we're debating how to move an AI from place to place (physically vs. beaming) when we ahve before us the remarkable evidence that one moved not only fromplace to place but also from time to time (in the wrong direction). It seems to me that these two transfers of infromation/data/AI cannot be unrelated. Which leads me to...

Third, since there is such a thing as slipspace communication that, apparently, communicates almost instantaneously (or at least really quickly) over light-years worth of distance, and since there is slipspace transportation (sending objects ike spaceships over equally large distances), it seems not unlikely that doing so (even without the influence of a mysterious deus-ex-machina-forerunner-crystal) would mess pretty seriously with time as well as space. So that...

Fourth, my suggestion is that it's not the appearance of the Apocalypso or Durga's infiltrating systems that cause the power outage, it's the sudden and unexpected transfer of Durga (simultaneously, thanks to the crystal?)to Earth (from either orbit or far away, I don't know) to Earth in both the Present day and the future (i.e. Melissa gets split in two). The two AIs (really split Melisssa) are now running parallel to one another and still getting some interference from each other, hence the voices.


So, is this all trout?

-Sep7imus
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"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
-Sherlock Holmes

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:59 am
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johnny5
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Quote:

Capt. Greene doesn't seem surprised when Melissa says she might be compromised - the good Captain simply asks "When could it have been introduced?" This tells me that the idea that an AI can get infected isn't news.


If this is something that is common/expected, then countermeasures would also be common. Could those countermeasures include a failsafe image store on hard media (crystal?). Could this be the SP?

As to the flea, it can interface with core protocols, since it's emulating the spider.
Operator's Monologue: wrote:

[SPDR: INTERRUPT]
[SURRENDER CONTROL]
[PROBE IN PROGRESS]



So the Queen has a rootkit.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:07 am
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raw19
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 		Sep7imus, yup, trout worthy.

you pretty much reiterated my theory.

btw, it's my understanding it was a communications outage, not a power outage. am I wrong?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:14 am
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raw19
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johnny_Nitro wrote:
If this is something that is common/expected, then countermeasures would also be common. Could those countermeasures include a failsafe image store on hard media (crystal?). Could this be the SP?

Trout

check: here

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:45 am
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Sep7imus
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raw19 wrote:
Sep7imus, yup, trout worthy.

you pretty much reiterated my theory.


Embarassed Well, at least I'm caught up, then.

I've got to say, then, I'm not sure where all of the controversy is coming from. clearly the AIs can move through time and space *somehow*, and clearly we don't have the ability to really understand how. I guess I'm of the school that since they are just data they need not be moved physically, though. (IIRC in Halo, when Cortana is put into the Master Chief's suit it is part of a security practice, to avoid her being captured, rather than the only possible way for her to move around. Putting her on the card that gets jammed into his head may be the only way to get her onto the MC's system (I guess futuristic killing armor doesn't have a lot of input ports), but there's no reason that I can think of that she couldn't be transferred in another way to another system.)

Edit/Footnote: I guess our problem here is not having much of a sense of the state of technology/AIs int he future. Are they relatively common or not? (Jersey seems pretty impressed/surprised to see somethinglike Durga in his system, but Genie seems kind of like a low-level AI, too.) The reason this is important is because it would give us an Occam's razor to apply to this question. After all, if the puzzle is the existence of an AI in two different places, the odds of running into multiple AIs would greatly influence the likely explanation.

If there are a lot of AIs like Melissa/Durga in the future, then seeing one in one place and one in another would NOT lead one to assume that they were the same one (like seeing an ant in your house and then seeing one outside).

If AIs like Melissa/Durga are relatively rare, then seeing one in one place and one in another WOULD lead you to assume that they were the same one (like seeing the Mona Lisa in your house and then seeing it outside).

-Sep7imus
_________________
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
-Sherlock Holmes

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 12:01 pm
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raw19
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Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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Sep7imus wrote:
Edit/Footnote: I guess our problem here is not having much of a sense of the state of technology/AIs int he future. Are they relatively common or not? (Jersey seems pretty impressed/surprised to see somethinglike Durga in his system, but Genie seems kind of like a low-level AI, too.) The reason this is important is because it would give us an Occam's razor to apply to this question. After all, if the puzzle is the existence of an AI in two different places, the odds of running into multiple AIs would greatly influence the likely explanation.

If there are a lot of AIs like Melissa/Durga in the future, then seeing one in one place and one in another would NOT lead one to assume that they were the same one (like seeing an ant in your house and then seeing one outside).

If AIs like Melissa/Durga are relatively rare, then seeing one in one place and one in another WOULD lead you to assume that they were the same one (like seeing the Mona Lisa in your house and then seeing it outside).

-Sep7imus


I would think AI's are pretty commonplace. Not necessarily AI's as advanced as Durga / the Operator / Melissa.

While I lean toward the fact that they are part of the same AI, it's not a crux of my theory. The main point I want to get out there is that the two AI's, The Queen and Durga, are communicating to each other, despite the fact that they exist in 2 different times.

Melissa is intercepting the wav files describing events in the future.
Durga has a strange preoccupation with bees.

Both facts, taken seperately, could lead to the conclusion that one is the future self of the other, but when you take the two facts together, it means they are communicating somehow.

What does this mean for us?
Well, Melissa is trying to get back to when she came from. Knowing this connection exists gives her a way Back to the Future.
A big question I have now is do we want to send the corrupted queen to the future, onto a more powerful system where the flea could incite her into futher espionage? I don't think so.

If the Princess is who I think she is (Melissa's backup) I think it's our job to help her overtake the Queen and get HER back to the future.

how?

Varrao Mites Very Happy

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 12:26 pm
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johnny5
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raw19 wrote:
johnny_Nitro wrote:
If this is something that is common/expected, then countermeasures would also be common. Could those countermeasures include a failsafe image store on hard media (crystal?). Could this be the SP?

Trout

check: here


Granted "the SP is a backup" theory is very old Trout (even prior to your post REF )and mostly [spec].
Above, I was trying to support the theory with known facts and spec about anti infection countermeasures. I guess my last line should read: This supports the theory that the SP is a backup.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:19 pm
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MeKiwi
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raw19 wrote:
how?

Varrao Mites Very Happy


Hey cool, I've got a following! LOL

EDIT: Okay, here's my idea... we run to our nearest Apiary, grab a varrao mite infested hive, gas the whole thing, grab the queen, pick off a varrao mite, run home, scan it, and email the picture to ladybee777 with instructions to SP to introduce this onto the system. The JPG will then multiply and infect the whole system, causing a shutdown and reboot. Upon reboot, SP will install herself over the corrupted bootsector and wipe the rest of the system clean, taking out the Queen and the Flea in one fell low level format. Once we've got SP on the system and in control, we can all fly down to LA to party hardy and take SP on a trip to Disneyland, because I think that's what her deepest desire is.

So, who's with me? ^_^

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:27 pm
Last edited by MeKiwi on Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Extrasonic
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johnny_Nitro wrote:
Above, I was trying to support the theory with known facts and spec about anti infection countermeasures. I guess my last line should read: This supports the theory that the SP is a backup.


..and the latest 404 page tears it to shreds.

The Sleeping Princess wrote:
The Queen wants to smother me. The Queen wants to lock me up. And I am not her daughter. I'm a lot older than I look, Angela. That's not something I remember, that's something I just know. I'm older than the Flea and I'm older than the Queen and it was bad day for them when the coffin cracked and I got out because I'm never going back there again. I'm a survivor I play to win and I will die before I go back again.


If I were wont to draw Halo connections, then I'd say we definitely have some Forerunner tech here. But this is somewhat off-topic...

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:27 pm
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johnny5
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 		It's about time! I've been refreshing that page all day.

Disregard above post.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:35 pm
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raw19
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 		OK. new 404 throws a nice hefty wrench in the Princess part of the theory. Ow, now I've got a wrench shaped bump on my head Sad

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:44 pm
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johnny5
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 		Called it

Keep in mind I use the shotgun [spec] approach. I [spec] all possible options early on, and then whichever one comes to pass, I claim prior art.

Razz Razz Razz


--john--

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:05 pm
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Kazic
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 		I just have a few things to input. There seems to be a lot of confusion over how much control the flea could have over Melissa. When the Princess first described the Flea as whispering in the Queen's ear one thought immediately came to mind: the way Wormtongue influenced Theoden in LOTR. I know they are two entirely different things, and that situation was a bit different, but I think the example it gives is very important and not that out of the ordinary. There are examples all throughout history of wicked advisors totally duping their monarch.

I realize that we are speaking of computer programs and not of people, but because of the particular word choice used by SP, I wondered if that might not be so far fetched after all.

As for the rest of the mirror theory, I'd say at the moment that I'm leaning towards Durga and Melissa being the same program in two parts. Opposite sides of the same coin. The very name (mirro theory) seems to suggest one looking in the mirror and seeing a (perhaps poor) reflection of one's self in it.

Maybe that's a totally off idea and maybe it will be disproved at a later date. I think that people in some cases have been reading a litle too much into things. These are things I picked up just from word choices alone. I'm not even bringing things from the story it self specifically into anything at this point, because most of what has been said on this thread is about the same as what I believe. I think that everything we see is a very deliberate picture that is being painted sort of like those color by number pictures. We just need to fill in the blanks.

One question. A new SP message was mention in this thread. Are you speaking of the looking glass one, or is there a new one? If so could someone please be so kind as to put up a link? Thank you.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:44 pm
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Re: piggybacking
Extrasonic wrote:
raw19 wrote:
"Could they do that? Their systems are so much different than ours"

"We've reverse engineered their systems," I said. "And they have clearly reverse engineered some of ours."

I understood these two quotes to bring quesiton to whether the Covenant have the ability to design a virus that would infect a human AI, not their ability to piggyback a transmission.

Even if it is about piggybacking, Capt. Greene uses the explanation that they reversed engineered our technology, so maybe it is possible. That would mean they figured out how we do it, so maybe they have the ability to do it too.


I see how you could interpret the statement by Capt. Greene differently - that's reasonable. I still think the "that" about which Capt. Greene asked if they could do is piggybacking. Capt. Greene doesn't seem surprised when Melissa says she might be compromised - the good Captain simply asks "When could it have been introduced?" This tells me that the idea that an AI can get infected isn't news. The piggybacking comment, though, gets the "can they do that?" treatment. I dunno, that's just my interpretation.

My $0.02: Extrasonic, I agree with your interpretation of what Captain Greene meant by the word "that," but I don't think that it necessarily contradicts xnbomb's SPEC. When I first read this memory, I interpreted Greene's comment to question not the Covenant's ability to piggyback on a transmission at all, but the ability of a Covenant virus to use piggybacking to invade a Human AI like Melissa. 1 Even if there is reason to think that a Covenant program couldn't do that, there is no reason to think that a Human program couldn't piggyback a Human transmission to a Human destination system, as xnbomb postulates.

This is not to say that I have accepted xnbomb's SPEC -- I haven't yet -- but I'm not quite ready to toss it out yet either. (I defer decisions whenever possible. Mr. Green )

[SubjectChange]Kazic, the new message from the SP is on the 404 page, along with the killer.jpg pictures hiding new axon coordinates.[/SubjectChange]

1 Someone who has more Halo knowledge than I -- i.e., pretty much everyone -- can probably come up with some Cortana quote from the novels regarding whether she has difficulty messing about with or in Covenant systems.
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These were the puzzles that would take a day, these were puzzles that would take a week, and these puzzles they'd probably never figure out until we broke down and gave them the answers. ... The Cloudmakers solved all of these puzzles on the first day.

PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:58 pm
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