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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[QUESTION][SPEC] Cole Protocol, the Apocolypso, and You
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fyzle
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Quote:
Point being, AIs like Cortana probably can lie, swindle, cheat and steal. We should treat them like normal ONI officers, and trust them based on their personas.


Does ONI have anything to do with the ONI game by Bungie? (Where some alien cacoon thing gets inside this girl - then it slowly raplaces her body from inside and she gets super abilities...)

Edit: She's also part of some secret government proj if I recall correctly.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:53 am
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Re: [OT] Asimov
Platonix wrote:
Besides...none of Asimov's three rules prohibit lying.
The three rules, ordered by importance (in case of conflict, prefer the earlier law) are, paraphrased:
  • Do not kill humans.
  • Don't commit suicide.
  • Obey humans.
It was noted in the movie "Bicentennial Man" that a robot adhering to these three laws can still lie if it judges that the human master will be better off that way.

(Dragging the thread even further off topic:)

The First Law of Robotics is not just "Do not kill humans," but "Do not harm humans, and do not allow humans to come to harm through inaction." In one of Asimov's short stories, Liar! (which, incidentally, appeared in the original I, Robot collection), a robot named "Herbie" was somehow inadvertently created with the ability to read minds. The Laws actually forced that robot to lie, to avoid causing humans mental harm -- that is, making them feel bad.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:55 pm
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<PSH>
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 		acctualy asimov's laws are:

* A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
* A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
* A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

http://www.androidworld.com/prod22.htm

the first is correctly restated above but i wanted to correct all of them and give you a link were you can find proff short of finding one of his books

PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:40 pm
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Platonix
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<PSH> wrote:
acctualy asimov's laws are:

* A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
* A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
* A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

http://www.androidworld.com/prod22.htm

the first is correctly restated above but i wanted to correct all of them and give you a link were you can find proff short of finding one of his books


Wait, so if a human told a robot to kill itself, the robot would kill itself as ordered? I thought the "protect self" law was put second specifically in order to prevent that.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:56 pm
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Cherry Cotton
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SuperJerms wrote:
sam wrote:
if so, should we be blindly following the requests of a malfunctioning, slightly demented AI... eg: we could end up being the ones that reveal the location of Earth to the Covies


Therein lies the magic...a flawed narrator is a classic storytelling convention. Our notions of who is good or evil, malicious or helpful here is all spec based on limited knowledge. Nope, we really can't trust anyone.

[META] This train is coming into the station one way or another. It's already a forgone conclusion that the'll find Earth. This game is probably here just to answer the question of how.


I agree, we can't really trust anyone... but I would really shiver and probably barf if our actions as a community result in the Covenant finding Earth. I don't think I want all the imaginary deaths on my conscience.

That said, 777 is our only clear goal, and the SP says that will simply make the Operator trust us more. However... I had this really creepy dream last night where we were launching missles at imaginary Japanese passenger ships as a part of I Love Bees under the premise that each time we hit a ship, its number would go down, and when we destroy a ship completely SOMETHING'S gotta happen... and at some point I was like, don't you realize we're firing on passenger ships? But whatever...

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:56 pm
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fyzle
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 		We already know Durga can lie:

"I don't read your mail. I respect your privacy."
"You extrapolate my eating habits..." "...and you don't read my mail?"
...
"You're smarter than you look."

PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:02 pm
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johnny5
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fyzle wrote:
We already know Durga can lie:

"I don't read your mail. I respect your privacy."
"You extrapolate my eating habits..." "...and you don't read my mail?"
...
"You're smarter than you look."


Sure, but we're not really sure who Durga really is yet.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:50 pm
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SuperJerms
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fyzle wrote:
We already know Durga can lie:

"I don't read your mail. I respect your privacy."
"You extrapolate my eating habits..." "...and you don't read my mail?"
...
"You're smarter than you look."

Lying's a moot point. She's willing to kill the auditor. The sidebar is about Asminov's 3-laws, so that's an obvious violation.

As far as it being on our conscious that the Covies find Earth, remember that it will be unavoidable. If we refuse to help, Melissa/PF will just find another way to do it. It's H2's main plot point, and they can't change that, they will need a cause. As such, they will find a way to make it happen. Besides, there are more people in this game than M. PF or SP could intervene.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:45 am
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HitsHerMark
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 		Wouldn't they figure it out eventually anyway?

After establishing even a partial perimeter of "outer" colonies, and a spot in the galaxy where ships NEVER seem to escape to, and eventually old Battlestar Galactica episodes would reach them...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:45 pm
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Atrophied
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 		I agree it is a moot point, there is not much point [SPEC]ing how they find Earth, suffice to say that they do and the MC has to be there to fend them off.

I further move that this has nothing to do with ILB and the Covies find Earth through some other method (which we'll find out when the game is released)

Edit: Heh... my 150th post... I'm decorated now, like a Christmas Tree Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:54 pm
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Anton P. Nym
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 		This cannot be the story of how the Covenant finds Earth, or at the least it cannot be that we affect how they do. It's already in the storyline... in the Halo 2 E3 demos (one single-player semiscripted, one multiplayer) set in Earth locations, in the trailers (especially the teaser-trailer from last year, with Seattle getting nuked), and in the novel First Strike. So It Is Written, So Shall It Be Done. Smile

What the ILB story will be in relation to the Halo 2 story has yet to be determined. I'm hoping it'll be nifty.

(Oh, and no AI yet shown in the Haloverse has Asimov's Laws embedded. Many would quite cheerfully kill to accomplish their objectives; Beowulf showed smug satisfaction as he launched his death trap.)

-- Steve's feeling a definite coffee-deprivation right now... *slurp*
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:45 am
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Scumbag
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Quote:

This cannot be the story of how the Covenant finds Earth, or at the least it cannot be that we affect how they do. It's already in the storyline... in the Halo 2 E3 demos (one single-player semiscripted, one multiplayer) set in Earth locations, in the trailers (especially the teaser-trailer from last year, with Seattle getting nuked), and in the novel First Strike. So It Is Written, So Shall It Be Done.


I'm not understanding your point... we know the Covenant takes Earth based on Halo 2 videos. We know that the Covenant knows about Earth, because of First Strike.

What you're saying is that this can't be the story of how the Covenant finds Earth, because we know they find it. How they find something is different than the fact that they do find something.

ILB is the story of how the Covenant finds Earth. We know they will, we just don't know how.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:46 pm
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Dorkmaster
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Platonix wrote:
<PSH> wrote:
acctualy asimov's laws are:

* A robot may not injure a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
* A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
* A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

http://www.androidworld.com/prod22.htm

the first is correctly restated above but i wanted to correct all of them and give you a link were you can find proff short of finding one of his books


Wait, so if a human told a robot to kill itself, the robot would kill itself as ordered? I thought the "protect self" law was put second specifically in order to prevent that.

No, because of the third law. There were instances where this could be circumvented. (i.e., if being activated caused a human harm, well then a robot would HAVE to destroy itself... ) They were hierarchal. The first law reigned supreme, but after that, the second law ruled the third law, but the third law could not be ignored. It's a really cool structure. (please do yourself a HUGE favor and read Asimov's "I, Robot" collection. [the movie was hollywood scum])
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:07 pm
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devolver
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Scumbag wrote:
we know the Covenant takes Earth based on Halo 2 videos.


Not to quibble too much, but I think we only know that the Covenant finds Earth; we don't know if they take it or not. I think we have to assume they want something on Earth though, since they don't seem to just glass it. (Since MC is fighting Covies on the ground in the trailers.)

Lately I've been wondering if ILB is introducing the next batch of Spartans (II or III or whatever) so someone's around to help the MC in Halo 2. I mean, MC's a bad-ass, but him and two or three Spartans aren't going to be able to repel an invasion.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:16 pm
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devolver
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Scumbag wrote:
we know the Covenant takes Earth based on Halo 2 videos.


Not to quibble too much, but I think we only know that the Covenant finds Earth; we don't know if they take it or not. I think we have to assume they want something on Earth though, since they don't seem to just glass it. (Since MC is fighting Covies on the ground in the trailers.)

Lately I've been wondering if ILB is introducing the next batch of Spartans (II or III or whatever) so someone's around to help the MC in Halo 2. I mean, MC's a bad-ass, but him and two or three Spartans aren't going to be able to repel an invasion.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:18 pm
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