Author
Message
Kraten
Veteran
Joined: 13 May 2010 Posts: 141 Location: Minnesota, USA
Shout out to BillHouse Thank you Need to give a Shout out to BillHouse - He found the tool - Thank you
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:50 am
TrueJournals
Boot
Joined: 30 May 2010 Posts: 43
Re: Ok Here is my full case for this
Kraten wrote:
Lastly for anyone saying " it don't have 10 lines" Who Cares it is not using them and nothing else would.
The problem I have with this is that this means there are a bunch of letters they *couldn't* encode. I would assume that these cards use a different encoding method in order to be able to accommodate all the letters. That's why we're complaining about using the 10 line decoding method when these don't have ten lines.
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:18 am
Kraten
Veteran
Joined: 13 May 2010 Posts: 141 Location: Minnesota, USA
But from what I can find there is no other method that would use only three lines and no other characters that would use these punches and the additional lines and make readable words. and why is the other card so fake then? if there is another way other than the fourI have found to encode a card I was not able to find it. and again ALL four methods read the same and would encode the same for letters and numbers. All I am saying is it can't be random chance or the candidate card would read like the other one - gibberish
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:38 am
Headman
Entrenched
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Michigan
I am beginning to think they are not punch cards. Since the markings are on a "Bubble Form" the info would need to be read by Scantron or other device possibly using Optical character recognition (OCR) or Optical mark recognition (OMR). They would not run this form through an opical reader to collect the penciled in data and then a punch card reader. Will need to do more research, but I am pretty sure they are not hole punch.
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:29 am
deshelbr
Kilroy
Joined: 31 Jul 2010 Posts: 2
Headman, I think you are looking at the wrong section. There is a scantron section, but everyone is looking at the OFFICE USE ONLY part, which is definitely punch-card.
"Call Class" makes sense as an instruction in programming. "Class&" means something in C++ language, but I don't know enough to explain. "AAAT21T" could be the name of the class, the name of an input variable for the class, or a value that needs to be passed into the class.
PDP-11 uses Assembly language. We'd probably benefit from having some people familiar with C++ and Assembly tell us what they think of the first message.
I like the theory that the Candidate Verification gibberish is an encrypted message and that it can be decrypted by passing it through the Class mentioned in the New Recruit form.
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:33 pm
TrueJournals
Boot
Joined: 30 May 2010 Posts: 43
Kraten wrote:
But from what I can find there is no other method that would use only three lines and no other characters that would use these punches and the additional lines and make readable words. and why is the other card so fake then? if there is another way other than the fourI have found to encode a card I was not able to find it. and again ALL four methods read the same and would encode the same for letters and numbers. All I am saying is it can't be random chance or the candidate card would read like the other one - gibberish
I realize that there hasn't been anything found that suggest another punch card encoding method, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm just suggesting that there's ways of decoding the information that we might not have thought of. For instance, the method in the attached image allows for the whole alphabet, numbers, and some special characters to be encoded. I'm not claiming this is in any way correct (haven't decoded anything), just suggesting that there are ways to cram information in less space.
Description
One example way information can be encoded using less punch card rows.
Filesize
13.91KB
Viewed
4724 Time(s)
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:29 pm
scifikg
Veteran
Joined: 30 Apr 2008 Posts: 76
Maybe we are being given the 6-bit encoding of a card on a computer. The top 2-bits determine the zone and the other 4-bits determine the rows to be punched. I used a PDP-8 computer since it was used back in the 60's.
Taken from DEC's PDP-8 user manual
The translation I get
I thought that I might be on to something when is saw jm == josh minker, but it all appears to be gibberish.
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:49 pm
Froid
Boot
Joined: 25 May 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Israel
although scifikg got ahead of me with the 6 bit encoding, i think we should carefully check the bits order.
according to google 6 bit encoding was used in CDC 1604 machine
there are several 6 bit character maps available:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixbit_code_pages
More information to follow
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:07 pm
Billhouse
Decorated
Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 169
Called in the Doctor. Every time I searched around for info on different styles of punched cards I kept running into this: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/
So I decided to email Dr. Jones himself with the 2 card images.
His response:
{The problem is, they're not full card images. An IBM card has
12 rows of data, and these images only show 6 rows, just the top
half of the card. If I try to decode it assuming the rest of the
card is blank, I get (using IBM 029 keypunch)
CALL -CLASS&AAAT21T
The second row of the first image is a second card, but it's
definitely not punched in a standard IBM code. That makes me
doubt that the first card is a standard code. I'm guessing that
these card images are junk, scans of old data cards someone found
that don't mean a thing. }
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:13 pm
Headman
Entrenched
Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 839 Location: Michigan
deshelbr wrote:
Headman, I think you are looking at the wrong section. There is a scantron section, but everyone is looking at the OFFICE USE ONLY part, which is definitely punch-card.
"Call Class" makes sense as an instruction in programming. "Class&" means something in C++ language, but I don't know enough to explain. "AAAT21T" could be the name of the class, the name of an input variable for the class, or a value that needs to be passed into the class.
PDP-11 uses Assembly language. We'd probably benefit from having some people familiar with C++ and Assembly tell us what they think of the first message.
I like the theory that the Candidate Verification gibberish is an encrypted message and that it can be decrypted by passing it through the Class mentioned in the New Recruit form.
Incorrect, I know exactly what I am looking at. I originally posted the idea of the punch cards here . The more I looked at them I realized they are not punch outs rather data marks. Usually you see them along the side of the page running the entire length. I have worked for the government for 20 plus years and have seen my share of punch cards and bubble forms. The purpose of Optical Marking and punch cards is the same, to read data. I just doesn't make sense to put punch holes on the same form used for optical reading, completely inefficient as you would require two separate machines for reading the data. Why do that when an optical reader can read the markings in question? The result is the same, just a different means of reading the info.
Great work guys, glad you guys know something about this sort of stuff.
Yeah, this is all gibberish to me, maybe someone more knowledgeable at coding can figure it out?
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/codes.html
Edit: I found a ballot punch card with what appears to be a similar setup as the RP forms.
Description
Filesize
21.32KB
Viewed
5119 Time(s)
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:51 pm
Xeno Lambrose
Unfettered
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 Posts: 668
Called the Doc Wow, with Billhouse calling the Doc, why doesn't someone send the HLM gibberish, etc. to the Puzzle Palace and let the No Such Agency crew have a crack at things. I'm sure they'd enjoy a laugh.
Hold on, the phone's ringin'...
Err, I take back everything I said above; what I meant was let's contact Stephen Hawking and let him look at the star formations, yeah, that's the ticket.
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:37 am
Kraten
Veteran
Joined: 13 May 2010 Posts: 141 Location: Minnesota, USA
Re: Called in the Doctor.
Billhouse wrote:
Every time I searched around for info on different styles of punched cards I kept running into this: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cards/
So I decided to email Dr. Jones himself with the 2 card images.
His response:
{The problem is, they're not full card images. An IBM card has
12 rows of data, and these images only show 6 rows, just the top
half of the card. If I try to decode it assuming the rest of the
card is blank, I get (using IBM 029 keypunch)
CALL -CLASS&AAAT21T
The second row of the first image is a second card, but it's
definitely not punched in a standard IBM code. That makes me
doubt that the first card is a standard code. I'm guessing that
these card images are junk, scans of old data cards someone found
that don't mean a thing. }
Even the Doc got CALL -CLASS&AAAT21T on our card
AAAT21T on a Phone is 2228218
222 - appears to be mainly a Cellular Prefix I still feel it will be a good lead if we can figure what CLASS means for the Area Code I tried a Few and one slightly interesting one is 701 ND home of RP where an answer machine picks up with - just - Please leave a message after the tone. No further Id. - I have not left message
Still hopeful something is here
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 5:58 pm
Billhouse
Decorated
Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 169
Re: Called in the Doctor.
Kraten wrote:
Even the Doc got CALL -CLASS&AAAT21T on our card
AAAT21T on a Phone is 2228218
222 - appears to be mainly a Cellular Prefix I still feel it will be a good lead if we can figure what CLASS means for the Area Code I tried a Few and one slightly interesting one is 701 ND home of RP where an answer machine picks up with - just - Please leave a message after the tone. No further Id. - I have not left message
Still hopeful something is here
Whoops! I meant to post that I tried the 701-222-8212 number a few days ago and got the same machine. Just sounds like a lady's normal phone.
But who knows?!?!?!?!?!
(the lady with the strange incoming numbers knows)
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:46 pm
eolith
Unfettered
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 Posts: 623
I just called 866-222-8218 on my cell phone, and got what sounds like a modem attempting to connect. Anyone have a modem hooked up? I'll have to dig around and find my old one.
888 prefix doesn't work.
googling the 866 version returns a "Mr Number" website that seems to be for identifying the different phone numbers. http://mrnumber.com/1-866-222-8218
This one says it's "Buildblock building systems llc oklahoma city"
http://www.ggdegg.com/866-222-8218
googling Buildblock comes up with:
http://www.buildblock.biz/
http://www.buildblock.com/
That company does have another 866-222-xxxx number.
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:26 pm
eolith
Unfettered
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 Posts: 623
has any tried superimposing the two to see what results? 7 of them match.
Description
Two punch cards superimposed
Filesize
17.75KB
Viewed
4430 Time(s)
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:57 am
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