Return to Unfiction unforum
 a.r.g.b.b 
FAQ FAQ   Search Search 
 
Welcome!
New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.
Website Restoration Project
This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.
Announcements
This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.
This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.
  

The time now is Thu Nov 21, 2024 5:33 pm
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)		 View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum
Calendar
 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[META] Sides? WHo should we trust?
View previous topicView next topic
Page 3 of 3 [43 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3
Author Message
Mike_Was
Decorated


Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Old Mombassa and Delta Halo, depending on the season

 		I was going to post a point-by-point response to SuperJerms, but I've decided to stop wasting my breath rebutting anyone who thinks Weephun "betrayed" anyone in this game.

I guess I wasted a whole lot of breath below.
_________________
GamerTag: DaFinePrint
Clan: EvadeEvadeEvade or Beekeepers depending on the day
Commander MikeWas, Axon Signal Corps
http://perpetualbeta.com/release/

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:00 pm
Last edited by Mike_Was on Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
HitsHerMark
Unfictologist


Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1521
Location: Austin, TX

 		The answer to the question is "eachother".

Thank you and good night.
Three shows daily,
stay for the veal.
_________________
"COVERED IN BEES!"
GirlInFocus
flickr

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 12:02 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website
 Back to top 
Ceantari
Decorated


Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 250
Location: SF\CA\94115

 		Besides, the Sleeping Princess isn't completely gone.

She sent me and fifty others (on her mailing list) another email yesterday (2004.09.24).


----------------------
!seek Princess
fail

grope:
!dsc unk transmit proc

!init search Princess
frgm extern proc 0

!access log extern proc 0

Uh-oh. How did-Tell her to go away!

Tell her not to look! Make her not see me, you dumb bug! Please, I'm begging you, I'm begging you, I'm beg-

I believe that shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.

Keep looking for me! Tell them, they can talk to me whenever she falls apart! Tell them to call my name! Tell them it's the only…NO!

not back there not back there I'm never going back I'm nev

Sometimes a mistake is the last thing you make.

!access log extern proc 0
complete

!listen Princess
fail

splotch

!seek Princess
fail

creepy

-------------------------------------

There's still hope she's around and most likely will contact us via emails only to those she's been sending emails to. ^_-
_________________
Ensign Ceantari,
San Francisco Killer Bees 49th Regulator Division, Apocalypso

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:01 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
smirkinghint
Greenhorn


Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Evansville,IN
Ceantari wrote:
Besides, the Sleeping Princess isn't completely gone.

She sent me and fifty others (on her mailing list) another email yesterday (2004.09.24).


----------------------
!seek Princess
fail

grope:
!dsc unk transmit proc

!init search Princess
frgm extern proc 0

!access log extern proc 0

Uh-oh. How did-Tell her to go away!

Tell her not to look! Make her not see me, you dumb bug! Please, I'm begging you, I'm begging you, I'm beg-

I believe that shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent.

Keep looking for me! Tell them, they can talk to me whenever she falls apart! Tell them to call my name! Tell them it's the only…NO!

not back there not back there I'm never going back I'm nev

Sometimes a mistake is the last thing you make.

!access log extern proc 0
complete

!listen Princess
fail

splotch

!seek Princess
fail

creepy

-------------------------------------

There's still hope she's around and most likely will contact us via emails only to those she's been sending emails to. ^_-


I thought the PF was the one who sent those out. Hence how a majority of people think he's now controlling the ladybee777 account.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:10 pm
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
ariock
Has a Posse


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay

 		Some points.
for Mike_Was

Regarding Commandment #7: I have heard it said that Melissa said to keep the conversations confidential. Even assuming this is true, Dana ALSO requested for us to help her. Dana is who we are here to help. Please try not to forget that.

Regarding betrayal, I am not sure who you are referring to, in game characters or out of game players. Not that it matters...
Whether one can betray a game character....you can...In the game.
weephun lied to SP about safe axons in order to allow Melissa to capture her. A lie like that is a betrayal. In the game.
Whether you can betray US is a more complicated matter. We have all been here helping each other out, playing with spec, getting axons. To ME it finda felt like betrayal to refuse to tell us what happened.
I help you, you help me.
I help you, you stop helping me.
you don't see that that might upset me? and that I might be expecting a damn good explanation before I help you again? Look, if you use the game as an excuse for something you do here, then I have to view what you do here as part of the game. Understand that I am not saying anything here about YOU PERSONALLY. This is about YOU in the GAME. You really need to not take this personally, and understand that if you do things in IN THE GAME that I disagree with, I will most certainly attempt to prevent you from doing them in the future.

And why the heck shouldn't I? This isn't YOUR game. It is OURS. ALL of ours. You are crew because of some combination of luck and skill. But axons are found and answered and puzzles are solved by some of that luck and skill too. If you are going to create a secret crew club and not let the rest of us hunters in on it, by all means, do. But seriously, don't expect those who also have been trying to HELP others to think it is that great of an idea.

As for some other slightly broken logic, knowing this would not have ruined the surprise, and in any case, there are Spoiler tags to allow you to post info that people might not want to read about right away. Use them.

Other slightly broken logic: There is no proof that what weephun did changed ANYTHING. The change in 404 probably would have happened and been attributed to someone else, or just left without attribution. Similarly, his withholding of the information about it did not ensure that it happened. Any warnings sent to the SP would probably have changed NOTHING. As vpisteve mentions elsewhere...WE are not driving this, the PMs are.

The final bit of broken logic is that the people questioning your motives and wondering if we should continue to help you now are dividing the community. When you decided to take yourselves out of the community by withholding information and embarking on your own course of action is when the division started. YOU did this, not us.

Apart from that, Have fun Tuesday! Consider getting a microphone and recorder to use with your phone! To post AFTER the game is over if you see fit, though you know what I'd prefer. RadioShack has ones that work well for phones for about 6 bucks, though I am not sure how well it would work with a cell phone... I should try that tomorrow and let you all know...

Ariock
_________________
"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 2:11 am
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
Mike_Was
Decorated


Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Old Mombassa and Delta Halo, depending on the season

 		Re: Some points.
ariock wrote:
for Mike_Was

Regarding Commandment #7: I have heard it said that Melissa said to keep the conversations confidential. Even assuming this is true, Dana ALSO requested for us to help her. Dana is who we are here to help. Please try not to forget that.


I haven't forgetten that Dana is who YOU are trying to help. My goal (out of game) isn't to help any particular character over another, it's simply to gather information. In game, that information gathering process may require me to choose between conflicting requests for assistance from in-game characters.

Quote:
Regarding betrayal, I am not sure who you are referring to, in game characters or out of game players. Not that it matters...


I'm talking about people who have pilloried Weephun for his actions, and apparently make no in-game/out-of-game distinction.

Quote:
Whether one can betray a game character....you can...In the game. weephun lied to SP about safe axons in order to allow Melissa to capture her. A lie like that is a betrayal. In the game.


By that standard, every single time one of us has picked up a phone and deceived Melissa into thinking we're one of her crew, thereby intercepting a message meant for the only people who she can trust to help her, that's a betrayal, too. I count more than 777 of them - many of them me, some of them you and everyone else who accuses Weephun of "betrayal" (or in your words, "heartlessly cruel action").

And by your definition, the moment Melissa asked him to help her, ANY CHOICE he made would be a betrayal - either of Melissa or of SP. Except, since you (and others) personally favor SP, you would be cheering his betrayal instead of decrying it.

Quote:
Whether you can betray US is a more complicated matter. We have all been here helping each other out, playing with spec, getting axons. To ME it finda felt like betrayal to refuse to tell us what happened.


Weephun DID tell everyone what happened. one, two, EDIT: THREE!

He specifically mentioned that:
a. Melissa asked him to keep part of the conversation secret, and
b. Melissa asked him to perform a task

At the time, no one accused him of "betrayal" for keeping a secret - only after people realized what the task was did that happen.

And why didn't anyone figure out the task sooner? Weephun described it like this:

Quote:
during the conversation she asked if I could help her with something, which is not exactly a secret either.


Given that it was alrady public knowledge that Melissa was concerned about a "rogue process" and was angrily talking about revenge, COMBINED with SP's earlier communcations about "distracting the Queen," the nature of the task was a puzzle that should have been solved. It was certainly easier than some of the puzzles SP made us jump through earlier. But everyone got distracted by the emotions of who got calls and who didn't. The PM's played us all perfectly on that one.

(Note also that some people got pretty close on it and actually warned SP. Despite those warnings, SP got caught. What's the I in AI stand for again?)

Quote:
I help you, you help me.
I help you, you stop helping me.
you don't see that that might upset me? and that I might be expecting a damn good explanation before I help you again? Look, if you use the game as an excuse for something you do here, then I have to view what you do here as part of the game. Understand that I am not saying anything here about YOU PERSONALLY. This is about YOU in the GAME. You really need to not take this personally, and understand that if you do things in IN THE GAME that I disagree with, I will most certainly attempt to prevent you from doing them in the future.


Weephun did nothing to "stop helping" you. He told EVERYONE he was keeping a secret. He told EVERYONE he had been assigned a task. Other crewmembers gave detailed descriptions and even recordings of their calls. Centipede figured it out and warned SP - and still, SP got caught. The only thing Weephun could have done additionally would have been to give you a verbatim recounting of what Melissa asked him to do - thereby betraying Melissa and jeopardizing his ability to gain more information from her in the future. Now THAT's something that would have been unhelpful.

If you're feeling betrayed because you don't think Weephun gave you enough specific, detailed information to take action that others had already taken and ultimately proved fruitless, that's the way you feel and there's nothing I can do about it. But you sorely underestimate the PM's if you do.

Seriously, if there's some bit of information that is essential to solving the game, and only the crew has it, and the crew isn't telling, you can bet the PM's will figure out a different way to disseminate it. If you think this wasn't part of the PM's plan, I wonder who you think has been writing all this wonderfully detailed story this whole time. The "betrayal" you may feel is just that, a feeling, not an actual wrong that has been done to you.

Quote:
And why the heck shouldn't I? This isn't YOUR game. It is OURS. ALL of ours.


That's right - and not all of us are playing the same game. I'm playing it to get more information. You're playing it to "help Dana." Others probably have different objectives. Lots of people might just be enjoying the story. Some might have a payphone fetish. Just like the in-game AI's all have differnent and largely unknown motives, every player has different and largely unknown motives. If my motivation makes me "dark side" in your view, feel free to call me Darth Was from now on.

Quote:
You are crew because of some combination of luck and skill.


Mostly mule-headedness and luck, rather than skill. Just ask any of the DC axon hunters.

Quote:
But axons are found and answered and puzzles are solved by some of that luck and skill too. If you are going to create a secret crew club and not let the rest of us hunters in on it, by all means, do. But seriously, don't expect those who also have been trying to HELP others to think it is that great of an idea.


Who's crew and who's not is pretty public. As you have pointed out, we were largely thrown together at random. If you think the 15 of us - two of whom I'm never even heard of - can agree on keeping something secret from everyone else, that's a pretty interesting notion. Even if that were true, I'm sure the PM's would keep adding crew until someone refuses to play along with the "secret club." (We have a neat logo on our black helicopters, by the way. I wish I could show you.)

There is no "secret club." All the "secrets" are out in the open. And membership in the "secret cliub" is up to Melissa, not any of us. Nevertheless, I have taken affirmative steps to include as many people as possible in the crew. But you'd know that if you DAFS.

Quote:
As for some other slightly broken logic, knowing this would not have ruined the surprise, and in any case, there are Spoiler tags to allow you to post info that people might not want to read about right away. Use them.


That's someone else's broken logic, not mine. If I feel a need to use spoiler tags, I will.

Quote:
Other slightly broken logic: There is no proof that what weephun did changed ANYTHING. The change in 404 probably would have happened and been attributed to someone else, or just left without attribution. Similarly, his withholding of the information about it did not ensure that it happened. Any warnings sent to the SP would probably have changed NOTHING. As vpisteve mentions elsewhere...WE are not driving this, the PMs are.


My point exactly. So you're no better or worse off than if Weephun had personally called you at home and played for you a tape of his conversation with Melissa. Why, then, are you chapped so raw?

Quote:
The final bit of broken logic is that the people questioning your motives and wondering if we should continue to help you now are dividing the community. When you decided to take yourselves out of the community by withholding information and embarking on your own course of action is when the division started. YOU did this, not us.


Since I've already linked to where Weephun spilled his guts, I won't link to it again. But that's NOT when the division started. No one seemed to mind at all that Weephun had a "secret task" - in fact, that whole thread seemed to thrive on trying to figure out what the puzzle was. The division only came when people accused Weephun of stealing away their precious Sleeping Princess - as if he had done something against the will of the PM's. Finally, I can't speak for the other crew members, but many of us are doing everything we can to include as many people as possible in the crew. Some of those efforts will be direct appeals to Melissa. Some of those efforts will be public posting of all the helpful information we can think of. We may think of other ways to help, and you'll see those too.

Quote:
Apart from that, Have fun Tuesday! Consider getting a microphone and recorder to use with your phone!


I've already done that on at least one occasion, and have posted summaries or transcripts of every phone call the day I got it, unless the .wav file had been unlocked. (Actually, I missed it on zip_your_shirt, my very first axon. But I did for all the rest.)

Quote:
To post AFTER the game is over if you see fit, though you know what I'd prefer. RadioShack has ones that work well for phones for about 6 bucks, though I am not sure how well it would work with a cell phone... I should try that tomorrow and let you all know...


I will record what I can, as I have always done. I will absolutley share anything that is not specifically conveyed in confidence. But if someone discloses something to me and requests that it be kept secret, don't expect me to betray that confidence. I've seen what happens to people who get accused of betrayal around here.

Quote:
Ariock


I hope you get a live call on Tuesday, and I hope to see a rank after your name. And I hope you'll then realize what a ridiculous thread this is.
_________________
GamerTag: DaFinePrint
Clan: EvadeEvadeEvade or Beekeepers depending on the day
Commander MikeWas, Axon Signal Corps
http://perpetualbeta.com/release/

PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:59 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
weephun
Entrenched


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC

 		Thanks Mike_Was. Good summary of pretty much how I'm thinking/feeling.

ariock, nobody on this board has made me feel LESS like sharing and MORE liking keeping secrets in the future than YOU. You really want a "Darth weephun" on your hands???? Keep up with the self-centered whiny tirade for much longer and that's just exactly what you might get. Twisted Evil Wink

Seriously though, I'm in this to play the game. You want to know my true motivations? To find out more about the haloverse ... yep, I'm a bungie/halo fan. I've fallen in love with the concept of ARGing, but Halo and the story therein was what originally brought me here and what keeps me going here. With the role I've been given (thanks PMs!) I have a unique ability to do that with my conversations and "trust" with Melissa.

If you feel somehow that you deserve that position more than me because you've done more than me in this game, well, hey, sorry, I didn't make the decision, I can't change it and your whining won't change it either. Seriously, sometimes it feels like I'm dealing with my 4 year old here. Confused [4 year old whine] But daddy, I wanted to be the crewmember, not weephun Crying or Very sad weephun's keeping a secret from me daddy! Crying or Very sad The PMs arent' playing fair! they aren't following MY rules, daddy![/end 4 year old whine]

As far as betrayal goes ... somehow it was OK to betray Melissa every time anybody sent an email to the SP detailing when she could spy on Melissa, because the SP ASKED us to do that and it helped move the story forward, right? Yet somehow betraying the SP when ASKED to by Melissa and thereby moving the story forward is a whole different story, huh? Rolling Eyes

Anyway, I'll let you all know what happens Tuesday. Unless of course, I'm ASKED AGAIN to keep something secret, and you all know my stand on THAT decision. [HUMOR,SARCASM]Or unless ariock continues his rants and pity party to the point where I really don't want to share anymore [/HUMOR,SARCASM]

Anyway, see you all tomorrow Smile
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:32 am
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
ariock
Has a Posse


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay

 		When You're Wrong...
Mike_Was, you missed one.

That link is what I based a large portion of my later comments on. Going back to it now, I see an area that I had missed previously, and that was that he AND TuxKamen had been asked to specfically send the emails to SP misleading her.

weephun, I retract everything I said about your doing it possibly being for personal gain in the game. I still disagree with it....cause I really like the SP. But I am perfectly willing to admit when I am wrong, and I was.

As to the secrecy issue...I am over it. It sure is nice when people share what they find out about what is going on in the game. But share or don't share, whatever. I figured in a community based on sharing it would be a bigger deal. Well, if the folks in charge don't care, who am I to?

I honestly have never been jealous or spiteful about this. I didn't say any of it because I thought I deserved to be crew more than you. These have all been comments directly about disagreeing with how I perceived that you were playing the game, and withholding information from this community.

Since I understand now that a large part of that perception was inaccurate, I apologize for those comments.
_________________
"It says, 'Let's BEE friends'...and there's a picture of a bee!" -Ralph Wiggum
When the Apocalypse comes, it'll be in base64.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:20 pm
Last edited by ariock on Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
 View user's profile MSN Messenger
 Back to top 
weephun
Entrenched


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC

 		Thank you, very much appreciated. Look forward to working with you in the future.
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:31 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
Aura
Boot

Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 14
Location: Long Island, New York

 		Because we're all working to solve this thing, and we're all answering to the axons, I think we're all unofficially part of Melissa's crew. Just because some people haven't actually spoken with Melissa doesn't mean that we aren't considered a faction member. It doesn't matter who you're answering the axons for, be it Pious Flea, Melissa, the Sleeping Princess, or you're just curious. Melissa is the one putting these messages out there and we're answering to them. She has us on a string, which ever way you look at it.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:43 pm
 View user's profile Visit poster's website AIM Address
 Back to top 
The Turtle Hermit
Greenhorn

Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 6

 		We should trust everybody here. Just consider the "crew" our inside connections. But to keep hidden the fact that there tricking Melissa they have to go along with what she says like a undercover cop.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:38 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
AngriBuddhist
Entrenched


Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 778
Location: Wa.

 		Pg. 20 -"The Fall of Reach"

"The Lieutenant responsible was your CO on that training mission. You
refused to testify against him despite overwhelming evidence and the
testimony of his fellow officers...and friends."
"Yes"
"They told the board of review the secret the Lieutenant had entrusted
to you all- that he was going to test his new theory to make Slipspace
jumps more accurate. He was wrong, and you all paid for his eagerness
and poor mathematics."
Lieutenant Keyes studied his hands and had the feeling of falling inward.
Dr. Halsey's voice sounded distant. "Yes"
"Despite continuing pressure, you never testified. They threatened to
demote you, charge you with insubordination and refusing a direct order
-even discharge you from the Navy."
"Your fellow officer candidates testified, though. The review board had
all the evidence they needed to court-martial your CO. They put you
on report and dropped all further diciplinary actions."
He said nothing. His head hung low.
"That is why you are here Lieutenant- because you have an ability that
is exceedingly rare in the military. You can keep a secret." She drew
in a long breath and added, "You may have to keep many secrets after
this mission is over."
He glanced up. There was a strange look in her eyes. Pity? That caught
him off guard and he looked away again. But he felt better than he had
since OCS. Someone trusted him again.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:47 pm
 View user's profile
 Back to top 
t-toe
Boot

Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 47

 		*I* don't feel left out! the seeker has asked for my help (along with many others), and I'm going to do everything I can to help him. I have a feeling he's not quite as bad or dumb as we think he is...
_________________
!behold truth

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:23 pm
 View user's profile AIM Address
 Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 3 of 3 [43 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3
View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum



Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group