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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Puzzles
[RETRACTED/NON PUZZLE] Finding Dana
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phieferboy
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 18
Location: San Luis Obispo

 		Stratus says (re: AIs)

Quote:
They cannot give orders to anyone, but they can give suggestion, which are uselly the best idea. But they could always override the controls of the ship and make it do what they want.


Sounds like a pretty sketchy system to me. An artificial intelligence with its own will, set up as a public servant, given no official authority but power to outstrip any authority and no method of accountability... sounds like someone's asking the AI to take over. It must have been a particularly trusting (or naive) group of people to let such an AI on a military vessel. With guns.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 6:16 pm
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Mazian
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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phieferboy wrote:
Stratus says (re: AIs)

Quote:
They cannot give orders to anyone, but they can give suggestion, which are uselly the best idea. But they could always override the controls of the ship and make it do what they want.


Sounds like a pretty sketchy system to me. An artificial intelligence with its own will, set up as a public servant, given no official authority but power to outstrip any authority and no method of accountability... sounds like someone's asking the AI to take over. It must have been a particularly trusting (or naive) group of people to let such an AI on a military vessel. With guns.


Well, if you read the novels, you find out that each AI has a "kill switch" built in to it that allows the human "overlords" to detonate a rampant, rogue or mis-behaving AI at need.

AI's are never "given" that much power, and if they are caught taking and using it, then they get to meet their kill switch.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:07 pm
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phieferboy
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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 		It's good to know that AIs have kill switches. If only more bad guys had kill switches, things would be much easier, wouldn't it? Then again, a needler to the head serves as a sufficiently effective kill switch for most of the Covenant baddies.

Sadly it would not solve our problem, since it is generally doubted who exactly the good and bad guys are. It seems like the Pious Flea is bad, but it would be a shame if we kill switched him only to find out he's the best "good guy" of all...

Which brings me back to the thread topic: do we really want to find Dana? What would we do with the information? Tell Melissa? Maybe, and I'm really stepping out on a limb here, but maybe that would put ol' Dana in jeopardy of, ya know, incurring Melissa's wrath. Which sounds like a bad thing. Assuming Dana has "good guy" status.

Though it would mean another plot device, and another popular Tuesday. Maybe it's inevitable. But woe to the poor sap who's responsible. Maybe instead of T-shirts, they could sell millstones.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 7:19 pm
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SuperJerms
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Mazian wrote:
each AI has a "kill switch" built in to it that allows the human "overlords" to detonate a rampant, rogue or mis-behaving AI at need.


Oooh! Do you smell that? Smells to me like...an endgame?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:30 pm
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ADB
Boot


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 26
Location: Oregon

 		So anyway ... I fired off an e-mail to Dana as well, since that's basically all I'm able to do.

I know it sounds cheesy, but meh. Razz

Quote:
Dana!

Look ... I don't mean to be brash. But please, for your own safety:

PAY ATTENTION, for Pete's sake! Do you even know who you are? To Melissa, you are the Assassin. You're on her hit list, my friend.

You've heard the axons. You know what Durga did to George Shibura. You know what Melissa can do to you. Does the phrase "shockingly excessive force is the best deterrent" ring a bell?

Get the hell out of there, Dana. And don't tell ANYBODY where you are. Or she will find you.

Guess I feel the Queen will be swift and terrible.

AquaDoctorBob

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:16 am
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Crisko
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 		Nice email. Couldn't've said it better myself.

Bob damnit this is going to turn into one crappy mess....

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:35 am
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Wandering_Angela
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Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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SuperJerms wrote:
or how about this one:

Dana=human
Melissa=not
SP=not
PF=not


Yes! Yes! Yes! What SuperJerms said!

We have to make choices here. Just because Melissa says "Jump" we don't always have to say "Off which cliff, ma'am?"

She's an AI from the future. We have no idea where her loyalties lie, especially now that the Flea seems to be influencing her. We need to convince Melissa that going after the "assassin" is pointless and just distracting her from her mission. Whatever that is. Which is what we need to find out.

It was one thing for Weephun to give up the Princess. I didn't agree with the decision, but I respected it as a valid choice made in order to gain Melissa's trust. But it's something else entirely to betray the one person we know to be just an innocent who made a mistake. Who knows what Melissa would do if she found Dana?

[OOG] I really don't like the "It'll move the game along" argument. We still have the ability to make choices while advancing the plot. Do you really think the game will stall if we refuse to give up Dana? Have some faith in the PMs. It's not a very good game if we have to follow every suggestion they make. And I think it's a pretty darn good game. I think they're intentionally putting us into difficult situations to see what we will do. Something interesting will happen either way - I have faith.

Now, if you have in-game reasons for betraying Dana, please share so we can argue about it in-game. Or just do it. But please don't say it was "to move the game along." IMO that kind of thing breaks the illusion and cheapens the experience for everyone. [/OOG]

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:56 am
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Howdareyou
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Joined: 18 Aug 2004
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Wandering_Angela wrote:
SuperJerms wrote:
or how about this one:

Dana=human
Melissa=not
SP=not
PF=not


Yes! Yes! Yes! What SuperJerms said!

We have to make choices here. Just because Melissa says "Jump" we don't always have to say "Off which cliff, ma'am?"


Hurrah for people who make sense and can see reason!

[applause]
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:07 am
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Jeeeeeeee
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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 		[META] (is it META or OOG?) The big problem in the present situation is that because people get to talk live with a real person (Melissa), they get so excited (I can understand) that they lose all sight of the reason why they're talking to her in the first place.

We are involved in this because we're supposed to help Dana fix the website. When we're talking to Melissa, it is as people helping out Dana, not as crewmembers of the Apocalypso! No one here has ever been on that ship. IMO it shouldn't even be a question.

I will try to rephrase. Members of the crew, you are not real members of the crew in game or out of game. You never have been and never will be. If (when) the Operator finds out that you've been lying to her all that time and that you are "spies", she's gonna go ballistic on you.

I admit we might have to end up helping Melissa, but if I had to talk to an AI obsessed with revenge and destruction of anyone or anything standing in its path, I'm not so sure that I would keep that relationship going if based on false premises.

(But then again, maybe I'm just jealous because there will never be any axons in here... )

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:12 am
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weephun
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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Jeeeeeeee wrote:
[META] (is it META or OOG?) The big problem in the present situation is that because people get to talk live with a real person (Melissa), they get so excited (I can understand) that they lose all sight of the reason why they're talking to her in the first place.

We are involved in this because we're supposed to help Dana fix the website. When we're talking to Melissa, it is as people helping out Dana, not as crewmembers of the Apocalypso! No one here has ever been on that ship. IMO it shouldn't even be a question.
Maybe why you are here. As stated before, I'm here for the great story and to play the ARG. Even in game, I believe it might be more important to get "the truth" that is being transmitted than it is to help Dana get her website back. Now, I'm not about to suggest that it's worth causing Dana any physical harm, no way! Melissa may be stubborn about this "revenge" business, but just as Jersey convinced Durga not to physically harm George the auditor, I'm sure we can convince Melissa to either completely drop the search for Dana or if that's not possible, at least convince her not to harm Dana physically or permanently.

Jeeeeeeee wrote:
I will try to rephrase. Members of the crew, you are not real members of the crew in game or out of game. You never have been and never will be. If (when) the Operator finds out that you've been lying to her all that time and that you are "spies", she's gonna go ballistic on you.
I admit we might have to end up helping Melissa, but if I had to talk to an AI obsessed with revenge and destruction of anyone or anything standing in its path, I'm not so sure that I would keep that relationship going if based on false premises.
Not so, Melissa realizes that those that she is talking to may not truly be members of her crew, but as long as they are helping her with her goals, that's OK.
Melissa wrote:
Given the memory damage I have incurred, it is difficult for me to know for sure if the people with whom I have come in recent contact are members of my original crew, the crew of other vessels who find themselves also shipwrecked like myself, or new recruits who have come to understand the vital importance of our primary mission, which is to seek out, behold, and reveal the truth.

And I'm definitely going to try to do all that I can to keep a position of trust with Melissa. I still believe that she can be a very valuable asset if she is helped to get past her "revenge syndrome" and back on track with her mission.

Jeeeeeeee wrote:
(But then again, maybe I'm just jealous because there will never be any axons in here... )
Try not to be. There is plenty to do here besides answering phones (spec, coordinate, laugh, buy t-shirts, etc), and trust me, sometimes answering phones can turn out to be ugly Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:26 am
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Nuriko
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 		[WILD SPEC QUESTION] What would happen to Dana if Melissa could "take over" Tokyo Tower? Should we recommend Dana get the HELL out of Dodge? She (Dana) just happend to be stuck in the middle of tech/AI/robot central and if we're going to try to protect her, do you think we should research places where computers aren't as mainstream, like Kyoto or rural Osaka?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:17 pm
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Kali
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Joined: 29 Sep 2004
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 		kill switch
I know it's a bit off the topic of whether/ how to keep Dana safe, but what would happen to sp & pf if we used her kill switch?

I know there's a lot of spec that sp and pf are just splintered parts of Melissa and would therefore die with her.

I lean toward the idea they are seperate AI's, but how seperate are they? If we kill Melissa, will we kill them all?

I would assume the sort of codes necessary to kill an AI powerful enough to run a ship might of necessity destroy all associated files. But then, I don't know enough about computer programming to make a guess. It would depend, I think, on what sort of circumstances the designers forsaw as leading to its use.

(I deeply apologize if this is old/repeat. I did search...)

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:04 pm
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Nuriko
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 		Re: kill switch
Kali wrote:
I know it's a bit off the topic of whether/ how to keep Dana safe, but what would happen to sp & pf if we used her kill switch?

I know there's a lot of spec that sp and pf are just splintered parts of Melissa and would therefore die with her.

I lean toward the idea they are seperate AI's, but how seperate are they? If we kill Melissa, will we kill them all?

I would assume the sort of codes necessary to kill an AI powerful enough to run a ship might of necessity destroy all associated files. But then, I don't know enough about computer programming to make a guess. It would depend, I think, on what sort of circumstances the designers forsaw as leading to its use.

(I deeply apologize if this is old/repeat. I did search...)


To be honest, we don't know the answer to that. If they are a part of Melissa, then they're toast. If they are seperate AI's they will be fine. SP might succeed as the new "Queen" but we don't know. It's all up in the air. Great spec though! Welcome to the boards. Smile

[Edit: Spelling >_>}
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:09 pm
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vpisteve
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 		I say she should head to Akihabara and assemble a bodyguard AI out of spare parts from the stores' dumpsters.

Razz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:24 pm
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Shad0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2004
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 		Re: kill switch
Kali wrote:
I know it's a bit off the topic of whether/ how to keep Dana safe, but what would happen to sp & pf if we used her kill switch?

I doubt I'm the only one who'd be very interested to hear from anyone who thinks they know how to activate Melissa's kill switch.

(Heck, I'd be pretty impressed with anyone who has any idea how to activate the kill switch of a fragmented portion of an AI that's over 500 years in her own past.)

But seriously, do the novels (Oh, Steeeee-eeeve...) give us any clues here? I dimly recall seeing a post quite some time ago about Dr. Halsey deactivating an AI in some sort of sneaky way. I did a search, but all I could find was this, which is not the post I'm remembering. The post I'm thinking of actually had an excerpt from one of the books, with the conversation between Halsey and the AI. Also, for some reason I'm thinking that the name of the AI started with the letter A, so it wouldn't have been Beowulf. I could easily be wrong, however. For all I know, maybe it wasn't even Halsey. (STEEEEEEEEEEVE! HELLLLLLLP!)

[UPDATE: Found the post. It's here. The AI was named Araqiel, and Dr. Halsey typed in a code "that activates your personal fail-safe. It generates a pulse beam of high-frequency UV light in your Riemann cycling-thought matrix, clearing your high thought functions. It will effectively erase you." Yoicks.]

Anyway, this is not to say by any means that we should use the kill switch if we can. But isn't it always nice to have options?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:30 pm
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