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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[META/SPOILER] A Hard Day
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
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Location: Seattle
Quote:
so who exactly is Thin? Is he just some common thug?

The impression I have had is that he is the local gangster boss equivalent.

He doesn't have to be a Spartan to kill JJ, just smart and nasty. He was expecting him to show up and had a trap ready.

I was very sad when JJ died. Some really good writing there - so nice job to the PMs.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:20 pm
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clamatius
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Quote:
We've borne the full brunt of this realization in this week's axons, and have responded by resolving that Thin should suffer even greater evils. I've noticed many posts tallying the terror people would inflict upon Thin should they have the chance. I've noticed no posts talking about how people wish they could comfort Jan, or stay Gillie's wrathful hand. No one wants to turn Thin over to the proper authorities. I can't blame anyone their thoughts, but where must draw the line? At what point does heartfelt revenge become unjustified? I know the dark consensus here is merely wishful thinking, but where might this collective train of thought lead us, but to further dark acts?

Bear in mind that people often deal with strong hate emotion with revenge fantasy. It doesn't mean they'd actually do it.

Now, on the other hand, Melissa or Durga... they'd actually go ahead and do it. Skull on the fencepost, and all that.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:21 pm
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Prokaryotic-Cell
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 		thanks The_SMakus. I was worried that our friend James went out with a whimper.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:30 pm
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camshaft
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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Avatrix wrote:
I believe Thin may be attempting to actually make Jan love him. I know he says that, but he also says:
Quote:
I don't know why I take you under my arm...

There is an established psychological condition called Stockholm Syndrome, where the victim ends up attached emotionally to the perpetrator. It's a sick and twisted idea where he might be trying to bring her under his retinue through psychological torture. He deserves to get the Knife himself...


You've got the right idea, but I think that in the excitement yesterday some have missed what "cupid's knife" actually is. It "knows what you are thinking" and, in this case, induces pain whenever Jan thinks bad things about Thin. Like electric shock therapy to the brain. So if everytime she thinks bad things about Thin, she gets a horribly painful shock right to the cortex, eventually she will be conditioned NOT to think anything bad about Thin. She won't be able to hate him -- the absence of hate, of course, is (arguably) love . . .

Of course, Jan's a smart girl, so just strapping her in the chair won't work. So you have to do something really horrible -- like, i don't know, killing her dad right in front of her. She won't be able to control her anger, the "knife" will do its work. This is what Thin means by "full of love for Thin." It's not stockholm syndrome; it's full-fledged, shock-induced trauma to the brain. This could seriously mess someone up . . .

Anyway, this is Thin's "elegant" (for lack of a better word) solution to his "Jan" problem. Being brainwashed into loving (or not hating) the guy seems a bit worse than plain old-fashioned torture.

Now...did Thin have enough time to torture Jan? Is her mind irreparably damaged? Did Mommy save her in time? Guess we'll see next week . . .

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:44 pm
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halcpu
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 		Either way, Thin is a threat to Jan. Gillie will not allow him to "continue" his operations. I don't think Durga is going to sit idly by either. We saw what she did to the tax guy and he wasn't physically hurting Jersey. And whether Jan knows it or not, she is on Team Jersey.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:48 pm
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Prokaryotic-Cell
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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 		just watched the E3 HALO2 trailer again this morning (it's getting to the point that its almost a ritual).
Just wanted to say that after the events yesterday, I felt more attached to the Halo-verse, particularly what the Master Chief is doing and going through. I can feel the magnitude of the Covenant invasion. Strange isn't it what a few wav files can do?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:54 pm
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Mazian
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Joined: 31 Aug 2004
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camshaft wrote:
.
.
.
. . . the absence of hate, of course, is (arguably) love . . .
.
.
.


Respectfully disagree. Love and hate are two sides of a single coin. They are both extreme emotions, and because of that it is so easy for Love to become Hate, or vice versa.

The opposite of any strong emotion is the lack of an emotion: Apathy.

However, after everything that has been done to Jan, she (just like we) will never feel apathy towards Thin Kinkle.

Assuming Thin's plan had been carried through, the only emotion left for Jan to feel would have been some sick antisocial personality disorder version of Love, or finally manage to mask her emotions. If she couldn't mask her emotions, or find some way to Love Thin, her only remaining choice would be death and escape.

Ugly little quandry. Confused
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:10 pm
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Gemini
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Prokaryotic-Cell wrote:
just watched the E3 HALO2 trailer again this morning (it's getting to the point that its almost a ritual).
Just wanted to say that after the events yesterday, I felt more attached to the Halo-verse, particularly what the Master Chief is doing and going through. I can feel the magnitude of the Covenant invasion. Strange isn't it what a few wav files can do?


Yeah, I'm seriously ready to just play the game now. After this week, I want to just come in as the Master Chief and make everything right. I have a feeling, though, that this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as our characters having bad weeks. I was flipping through EGM earlier, and there was a Halo 2 ad that said "This battle doesn't need a hero. It needs a savior."

I wholly agree.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:13 pm
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Shadowkiller
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 		I think the last set of Herzog (grumpy old man) files pretty much somes up what this is all about. It is about winning against that what threatens us while still remaining human. Both Standish and Thin Kinkle represent what we shouldn't become. Jan skirted to close to becoming like Thin Kinkle and lost something very important to her, her father. What would humanity lose if it became like Standish?

Edit:
Or maybe I should say Jan became to much like the Stupid Cop who let the darker side of his nature control him. Which in the end isn't all that different then what Thin Kinkle is or for that matter Standish.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:39 pm
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clamatius
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Joined: 24 Jul 2004
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 		I would tend to agree. Obviously, there's a lot of sub-themes (family, etc), but the "ends don't always justify the means" theme seems dominant to me.

It was one of the things that inspired my [URL=http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7022]spec[/URL] that the central thread of the story is Standish's cover-up of ONI's foreknowledge of Troy's destruction.

As you point out, it's played out in several versions - Jan beating up the thug, Standish's cover-up, Durga's harassing the tax auditor, the stupid cop's vigilante actions, etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:10 pm
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MeKiwi
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Joined: 30 Aug 2004
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clamatius wrote:
I would tend to agree. Obviously, there's a lot of sub-themes (family, etc), but the "ends don't always justify the means" theme seems dominant to me.

It was one of the things that inspired my spec that the central thread of the story is Standish's cover-up of ONI's foreknowledge of Troy's destruction.

As you point out, it's played out in several versions - Jan beating up the thug, Standish's cover-up, Durga's harassing the tax auditor, the stupid cop's vigilante actions, etc.


And OOG, in the books when Dr. Halsey suggests to Master Chief that maybe sacrificing one for the "greater good" was, in fact, wrong.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:13 pm
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GabrielBlade
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Joined: 17 Sep 2004
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Quote:
THe_Smakus said:
This situation is dire indeed. Not only because of Thin Kinkle's depraved actions, but also due to the depraved response by many forum members. How can we honour Jan's pain, J^2's death, and Gillie's rage if we lower ourselves onto the same base level as Thin and his compatriots?



I believe I can honour Jan's pain by doing exactly what Gillie will do. Because I truly believe sometimes the only way to beat an enemy is to play his game. I've never really believed it before, and I'd always derided people who said it to me - but that was before I became so emotionally attached to Jan, J^2, and the others, before I listened to them suffer...


Quote:
clamatius said:
Bear in mind that people often deal with strong hate emotion with revenge fantasy. It doesn't mean they'd actually do it.



.. not everyone would do it, no. But me, if I had the training, the equipment, and the resources, yes, I would do it. Skull against the fencepost. Why? Because I believe in defending the innocent by any means. Jan doesnt deserve the "treatment" Thin is applying. Nobody does, EVER, even if she did maybe beat him at one of his own games, or be accidentally complicit in the homicide thanks to the dark cop. Nobody could ever possibly justify to me that Thin deserves any modicum of restraint in his.. "treatment." If I had the chance, I would dispose of him as coldly as he ordered his thugs to dispose of J^2s body. If that makes me as bad as he is - so be it. I saved someone else the trouble of having to sink as low as I did - and that's a compromise I'm willing to make.

If that makes me a cold hearted, vicious bastard, then so be it. Ask my girlfriend later today if it means I'm not still a loving, caring person who would take a bullet for the people he cares about. Ask my parents if it makes me a worse son, that I would save someone else the pain and trouble of becoming that which caused them to be in the situation they are.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:19 pm
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johnny5
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MeKiwi wrote:

And OOG, in the books when Dr. Halsey suggests to Master Chief that maybe sacrificing one for the "greater good" was, in fact, wrong.


Way [OOG]: Despite Spock's statement to the contrary, the good of the many does not always outweigh the good of the few or the one. This is especially true if the few (or the one) have no say in the matter. Wether to sacrifice onesself for the greater good is a decision left up to the individual, and not some government beaurocrat or otherwise.

That said, the success of the mission was used as an excuse to allow an entire planet to be glassed (Troy, and presumably Harmony).
A terrible calculus indeed.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:37 pm
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ROBOGriff
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GabrielBlade wrote:


.. not everyone would do it, no. But me, if I had the training, the equipment, and the resources, yes, I would do it. Skull against the fencepost. Why? Because I believe in defending the innocent by any means. Jan doesnt deserve the "treatment" Thin is applying. Nobody does, EVER, even if she did maybe beat him at one of his own games, or be accidentally complicit in the homicide thanks to the dark cop. Nobody could ever possibly justify to me that Thin deserves any modicum of restraint in his.. "treatment." If I had the chance, I would dispose of him as coldly as he ordered his thugs to dispose of J^2s body. If that makes me as bad as he is - so be it. I saved someone else the trouble of having to sink as low as I did - and that's a compromise I'm willing to make.

...


So does this mean you'll volunteer for the Spartan project in a few hundred years? Or are you just a merc in waiting? Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:37 pm
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Malice
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Joined: 03 Oct 2004
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 		Now, John knew the difference one man could make in this war.

Master Chief, First Strike.

Indeed, we will feel the difference now. I'm all for flaying alive Kinkle. Kamal's bit didn't hit me as hard. I noticed the symptoms of a degenerating flash clone from the beginning. At least there is still hope for him, that he might be reunited with his sister in some way, or find closure again.

It has went from an intrigueing storyline, to a heartnumbing traumatic turn of events. They softened us up for this with the ice cream shop, that and the feeling that was always there, that he would do anything for jan. That he would "run" through hellfire and brimstone to protect her.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:08 pm
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