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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Interaction
[EMAIL] Attempted to warn Melissa, SP loyalties heads up
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bcriswell
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Oxford, England
TuxKamen wrote:
What isn't so great is taking someone's report saying, 'Hey, I sent this to her'--the purpose of which is to keep you in the metaloop about interactions

How is using a picture report different from using someone else's report on a report? Both types of reports are for the purpose of keeping others in the metaloop regarding interactions.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:45 am
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atdt1991
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Joined: 04 Sep 2004
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 		...
That is a good point, Tux. However, both actions have a chilling effect on the data the rest of us receive (or are willing to make available).

I gaurantee that weephun's logic has altered not only what I might do but whether I would mention it to another beekeeper. Good? Bad? *shrugs* Don't know, it -is- less fun that way.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:33 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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 		this is meta and you should all be scared
To clarify these muddied waters as best I can:

1. Unfiction is out of game for us to use to send information to the characters. I know it is counter intuitive in this game because Dana linked here from her blog. This had an in-game justification of guiding people who answered her plea for help to this site. Also, it had been posted at least 10 times to her blog.

2. That means anything posted here is not in-game. Pictures, stories, emails, anything that a player posts is out of game. Using the faked photo example, the relevant question is: can it be explained in an in-game way that player A knows about player B's fake photo? Just seeing it posted on the forums is insufficient.

If Player A can truthfully say "Melissa, Player B told me the photo he sent is fake and I wanted you to know" that is fine, although stabbing Player B in the back usually results in revenge being served on Player A.

Thus, in our example, simply seeing the fake photo on the forums is not enough. Nor is using any other post against a player.

Trust me, I know how hard this rule can be to implement in practice.

3. In-game sources can be used.

Examples: Player A finds that Player B was mentioned by the Sleeping Princess on the ilovebees site. Player A can send that in-game reference to the Queen. Or if Melissa commends Player A on the 404 page, Player B can denounce Player A to the SP ( if Player B can reach her) by showing the reference on that page.

4. My personal opinion is that players should never report other players to characters. For any reason. Even if requested by a character. It creates needless tension and ill-will. Plots for revenge begin to hatch. Small bombs go off and meta (like this post) immediately proliferates. Chat becomes consumed with hatching it out. Pretty soon focus on playing the game gets lost.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:46 am
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Clayfoot
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Joined: 19 Aug 2004
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 		Turning in weephun
Weephun used public information on this site to turn in others and gain some kind of advantage. That information simply wasn't available without the voluntary contributions on this site. There's nothing wrong with using this same public information to point out Weephun's double interests in the game. Indeed, a crew member that is "truly loyal" to Melissa should have brought Weephun to her attention long ago.

On a more personal note, I love all of the thoughtful discussion that has developed out of this one simple act.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:07 am
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ROBOGriff
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 		Re: this is meta and you should all be scared
rose wrote:
To clarify these muddied waters as best I can:

4. My personal opinion is that players should never report other players to characters. For any reason. Even if requested by a character. It creates needless tension and ill-will. Plots for revenge begin to hatch. Small bombs go off and meta (like this post) immediately proliferates. Chat becomes consumed with hatching it out. Pretty soon focus on playing the game gets lost.



I agree with this rule. In fact it seems like we are lost on the original reason for teh axons. Melissa is broadcasting data to us (her crew) to figgure out what happened and the extent of the damage. Infighting and snitching is not neccisarily working towards those goals. So can we all just play nice?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:16 am
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Clayfoot
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 		Re: this is meta and you should all be scared
ROBOGriff wrote:
So can we all just play nice?


He started it.

So there.

Raspberry

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:19 am
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weephun
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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 		So I'll end it too then. Evil or Very Mad

Well let's include everything then, here's some pm's sent to me:

atdt1991 wrote:
My good sir, your decision to not disclose to the group is interesting and amusing. You've used information that the group has given you, presumably in confidence, and given it to someone who might use it to harm them (like they have harmed Dana by declining her ATM card). You've effectively scared everyone into NOT communicating because they're afraid of YOU telling on them. Why should you be any different?

Also, if your tattling has removed them from the rosters, and your reaction is "that's what they get for being on the wrong side", can you not be as ambivalent if you yourself were removed?

---------------------------------------------------
When this is all over, weephun, we should work up some sort of regional beekeeping convention, maybe four or five, all at the same time, and we'd all share a drink at the bar. Preferably, a bar with wireless access. Wink


Ripp wrote:
Weephun-

I saw what gkrohne did in [url=http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=86598#86598]this[/url thread tonight and I had to respond. I posted there, but I also wanted to send something to you personally.

Thanks for all the effort you've put into the game this far, I really appreciate it and I hope that the asshats here don't drive you from the game, because I really enjoy following your exploits from afar. But if you did decide to stop communicating here, I'd completely understand.

Anyway, I won't take up too much of your time. Thanks again, and good hunting!

Ripp


A - Any information that I have ever given to Melissa has been available to anyone and was known to me w/out ever visiting these forums.

The location of the SP, the names of those listed on the ilovebees site as transmitting the confidential files, and no I never turned in hmrpita, that was Lt. Adam with *gasp* knowledge taken DIRECTLY from the chat rooms here *gasp* (somehow you notice he's never managed to take any flak).

Yes, the balloons and hidden text stretches this slightly. But with other PMs and emails that I have received asking me how to communicate with the SP, the fact that I was the one who originally noticed the SPs request to send in the confidential files and convinced others to send them in, I was one of the first ones to put together the fact that the SP wanted us to put identifying things in the pictures that Melissa was (apparently at the time) going to ask us to send in, and the fact that the balloons and "hidden text" are quite easily visible on many of the pictures even w/out reading anything here ... ah whatever the reasons, yes that ONE thing did overstep the META bounds slightly and I apologize to any that were offended by it. I will see what I can do to mend any damage that might have been caused.

Also funny how nobody seemed to even notice that I was trying to make sure that Melissa didn't cause irreparable damage to the SP, huh? Guess once I've been labeled the "bad guy", I can't do anything good, huh?

B - Melissa has asked me and my squad specifically to help root out "traitors". So somehow it's OK for everybody to follow the SP's instructions to the letter, but not OK to follow Melissa's huh? Even with the FULL DISCLOSURE to those that I am talking about. I'm sorry if I disagree with the seeming majority that the SP is somehow the "good guy" in the story, but I do disagree. She's complicit with the PF now, Melissa has decided that it's better to get Dana to comply using kindness than force, and the SP has given us nothing that wasn't stolen from Melissa ... maybe if there was no rogue process or traitors to be wary of then we would be getting it all directly and easily from Melissa.

C - Yes, I think the "asshats" have finally driven me away from this. All the hours coordinating Team Idaho, driving to axons (including getting my family out the door at 7AM to make the 6 hour drive from Utah back early yesterday to make sure I could make the Boise axons), helping Mad Cow coordinate pictures and phone calls, explaining this game to countless others in order to get their help (all the employees at the local Pizza Hut, and DoubleTreee Hotel, my boss, my co-workers, my family, tons of local friends and Halo players, and cross posting tons of info in the bungie.net forums), trying to fulfill Melissa's tasks while at the same time keeping everyone here updated as to what I was doing, helping others to find and fulfill the Sleeping Princess' tasks, and the stress that all of that time and effort has put on my work and home situation, only to be rewarded by the majority of the people here treating me like s**t. Yah, somehow I don't need that in my life.

I can't believe how much time and effort I've put into this to have it turn out like this, but I can only take so much. It's amazing how it only takes a few f**ktards to ruin such a great experience. And I have definitely put up with more than a few.

Lt. weephun signing out.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 10:51 am
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weephun
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 		Here's the latest (and probably last for a good long while) then:

Lt. weephun wrote:
Traitors and scandals all around. I have been deluged and
discouraged. All our work seems in vain as the friends of the
Sleeping Princess and those blinded by the seeker seem to always be
one step ahead of us.

I feel ashamed that I have not been able to keep up with them and
downtrodden from the constant beratement that I receive from those who
I had counted as allies. I understand how you must feel now and
wonder how you manage to continue in your pursuit of our mission.

As proof of this, is seems that apparently some of those that have
sent in hidden messages (red balloons or otherwise in the visual
proof) are not actual traitors, but have been duped into compliance
with this method of communication by those loyal to the Sleeping
Princess. It would be hasty to judge who are traitors by this method
now.

I await further instructions.

Discouraged but still willing if needed.
Lt. weephun

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- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:11 am
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Mad Cow
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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 		Oh fantastic... Now that Lt. weephun is gone for a while, team boise is going to be severely handicapped.... Meh.... lets not do things like this again eh?
So here is my oath.
I will never undermine another player in this game without supported in-game evidence of their betrayel or whathaveyou, unless it is necessary for the plot and I have either their permission or have warned them a few days ahead of time so they can contact me and discuss it with me.

So thats my position... although worded horribly... hey its early Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:11 am
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devolver
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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 		Well, this is all very Censored. I think some of you out there should be Embarassed. As far as I'm concerned, Weephun has been doing a lot for along time to move the game along. If I had gotten a live call (or ever get one ... Crying or Very sad ), I'd do what Melissa asked too, and I think most of you would as well.

Anyway, this sucks. I hope Weephun comes back soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:40 am
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Phaedra
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Joined: 21 Sep 2004
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Ripp wrote:
Some folks here are so jealous of your success that they'll do anything to lash out, as our friend gkrohne did here.


Let me say, first off, that I actually agree with your point, but I must object to the way you made it.

I would be careful about attributing criticism of the decisions of Mad Cow and weephun solely to jealousy. While I personally feel that gkrohne's actions were unwarranted, if it is the boldness and initiative that Mad Cow and weephun demonstrated that you admire, it could just as easily be argued that for sheer chutzpah, gkrohne trumped them.

Nevertheless, just because you disagree with players' actions does not justify impugning their motives.

And this:

Quote:
Please continue to play the game in whatever manner you see fit, and try to ignore these spineless jackanapes.


...is completely inappropriate. Disagreement is no cause for name-calling. If your argument is good enough, let it stand on its own merits, rather than resorting to attempting to humiliate those who believe differently. If it can't stand on its own merits, then you need to reconsider your reasons for making it.

Quote:
I also don't criticize all the spec and meta posts made here, because some people need those to help them form their thoughts, and I can appreciate that. That's their way of playing the game.


People share SPEC for more than just a way to form their thoughts, Ripp. Letting other people have at what you've come up with is a good way to refine it, and it may be the inspiration for even better SPEC from another corner. If you're not adding to the collective thought process, you may be holding back a vital intuitive leap that could spark actual problem solving.

Regardless, welcome to the forums. I'm sorry that you find our community-building "noise," and see no use for attempts to get to know one another that may not be directly related to the game, but you are nonetheless welcome.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:46 am
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Phaedra
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 		Poor guy.
weephun wrote:
Here's the latest (and probably last for a good long while) then: <snip for space>


Oh weephun, why are you always the scapegoat? Don't go, my poor abused friend, we'll find a way to fix it.

I could email Melissa on your behalf if you think it might help. I think she kind of likes me, and might understand that double agents are dangerous, unless you have a very good prior reason to trust them.

Perhaps if as many verified crew as possible attempted to communicate with Melissa on weephun's behalf, we can offset gkrohne's damage?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:53 am
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atdt1991
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 		Awwww.
I realize I'm going to be branded an asshole for saying this, but I have no sympathy.

Firstly, while I may be critical of weephun's decision in-game, i've never maligned him (you, if you're reading) in a personal way. In fact, I've gone out of my way to make it known that there are no hard feelings.

Second, how could you not know you'd be martyring yourself by betraying actual people? Sure, it's in-game, but if someone else had been told to do it and they reported you, you'd be pissed. I am NOT saying it wasn't the right thing to do. Out-of-game. I'm saying your surprise is shocking, and your martyr-iffic response saddening.

We've all contributed and made sacrifices for this silly game (how many of us lost a day's pay for going to that first axon?), and none of us wants to see that hard work minimized. Including the people you called out. *shrug*

To sum up, all I'm saying is you should own your actions. You betrayed people at the request of an in-game character, and have thus earned the right to be vilified IN-GAME. That's half the fun. You're a black-hat, and we all know they get the girls. Just don't expect us to cry for you.

Also, I'm surprised at your thick skin. Scores of people have come to defend you, and personally I would be quite pleased at seeing people care like that. If you're taking anything that's happening inside this game and making it personal, you might want to re-evaluate your approach.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:00 pm
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krystyn
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 		There is quite possibly a metric buttload of agonizing over possibilities (and the self-made victims who love them) in this thread. I find myself skimming, and I wonder if maybe we can concentrate on actual outcomes.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:33 pm
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ROBOGriff
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 		I belive there have been some severe violations of some basic rules for playing a game of this sort. Name calling and assumptions of another player are not tolerable in any medium. Remember we are talking about REAL people, not fictional game characters. As such, their opinion is just as valid as anyone elses.

[stump]

I understand that people are most likely afraid of being exculded from future interaction due to weephun's actions, but why is eveyone jumping on weephun for playing the game? I don't nessisaily agree with ratting out other players, but we as far as we know, this could be a nessiary part of game development. Factions are not unheard of. Also this is the gamble of espionage. You might actually get caught. And rule number one is don't get caught (or don't talk about fight club, depends on your point of refrence)

Remeber that this is just a game and HALO 2 is just a few scant weeks from release. Keep things in priority and just relax and have fun.

[/stump]
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:36 pm
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