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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): Interaction
[EMAIL] Attempted to warn Melissa, SP loyalties heads up
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bcriswell
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Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Oxford, England

 		Maybe it would be enough to point out that information on these forums is OOG. It should only be used for collaborative effort. Information posted exclusively to these forums should not be used against the posters, whether individuals or the collective.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:00 pm
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ariock
Has a Posse


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 762
Location: SF East Bay

 		Weephun, why?
First off, just to clear up what I said.

I didn't accuse you of being the one to turn in hmrpita. I know that was Adam. What I said was that with the new info that Melissa DOES trust hmrpita now that you would most likely advise her away from that. Maybe you wouldn't, but it would fit with your in game character.

anyway.

As one of your most vocal and long winded early critics who since saw the light and apologized for my earlier tirade, I want to make something clear.

I hope you don't go. I appreciate all that you have done in and out of game. While I wouldn't have made many of the choices you made, I acknowledge that it is a game and have not let it get to me since then.

But come on. I still see what krohne did as a fairly innocent act. You have lost nothing. He has gained nothing.

Look at it this way. You have essentially aligned in game with Melissa and against any attempt to coerce her into giving up more than she would normally want to (the SP, and Section 5 files). So, one method of helping the SP is to subvert the one known ally of Melissa in her eyes.

I know this is hard after everything else, but try not to take this one development so hard. If things here are all meta, then his email will not be taken to heart by the PMs and therefore Melissa. If they do take it to heart, you will just have a little more explaining to do the next time you talk to Melissa. I was there for hmrpita attempting to explain herself to Melissa. It was tough, but she got through it just fine.

Perhaps you could explain to her that the SP forces hacked your chatter and have been broadcasting your messages to Melissa via this unsecure channel... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:06 pm
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HalfMoon
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Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 33
Location: SoCal

 		Well, this has been a very interesting thread. I may only have a few posts under my belt, but I have been lurking here and playing The Home Game version(read:whatever I can do) of ILB since before the Wide Awake. I have read a lot of posts from a lot of people, and I for one would be very disappointed if anyone left the game or even just these forums because of the actions of any other player.

IMHO, the only way in which gkrohne stepped over the line was in linking to this thread in his email. "Turning in" weephun was fair game, just as weephun has used info at his disposal to turn in others. Attempting to lower Melissa's trust level of weephun is also fair game, even if it makes getting "confidential" info more difficult (something there's currently no evidence for. Besides, the difficulty is often part fo the fun, no?). But in making his "evidence" a link to this very thread, gkrohne screwed up the very concept of OOG and the communal nature of this forum.

Every person weephun "turned in," he got based on something they did in-game. Where ever he got his information from, the actual actions he described were always in-game, from telling Melissa where the SP was hiding to who helped the SP transmit all the way even to who sent corrupted images. All in-game actions and consequences.

His posts here, however, were not in-game. He was not giving info to any in-game character, he was not advancing any in-game plot with this thread, he was not subverting anyone. He was simply keeping the rest of us informed of his in-game actions in an out-of-game forum.

Weephun took the role of black hat, yes, and I think he's done an exceptional job with it (note, he even fulfills one of the chief requirements for a good antagonist; he believes he's doing the Good and Right thing, no matter who disagrees with him). He's gone above and beyond in keeping the other players of this game in the META/loop about what he's doing and what's happening because of it. He's accepted a metric ton of crap for his actions, and kept going. So am I surprised that he would react the way he has? Nope, not at all. Because while every backstab he did was for some action taken within the game, the stab he's recieved was for stuff he was doing OOG. Cripes, it's about two inches away from telling Melissa that weephun can't be trusted because in real life he sells insurance(or whatever)

What's the difference between weephun's actions and gkrohne's? weephun kept it in-game. Plain and simple.

So that's my opinion, sorry that it's long-winded.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:42 pm
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MeKiwi
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Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: San Francisco
HalfMoon wrote:
What's the difference between weephun's actions and gkrohne's? weephun kept it in-game. Plain and simple.


Amen.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:48 pm
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krystyn
I Never Tire of My Own Voice


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 3651
Location: Is not Chicago
ROBOGriff wrote:
but why is eveyone jumping on weephun for playing the game?


Why the hyperbole? Because, what, if you say something enough times, it becomes a matter of public acceptance?

weephun, in my opinion, has done just as much and sometimes more to engender the feeling that 'people' are 'against him.' I think there are elements of him having enjoyed the attention, in spite of whatever actual distress he may have felt. He kept threads about him going long after we were all done with it, and had moved on to other things. He's also worked very hard on participating actively in this game, and done a lot of legwork out what I assume is a general enthusiasm and sincere affection for the game experience.

I'd like not to be spoken for as part of some angry mob group. It has irritated me since the first day he revealed his 'secret' task with Melissa, and irritates me now. I spoke up in defense of his actions (or, specifically, the ramifications of his actions) from the get-go.

I don't know what else to say. So much of this backstage gossip is really moot, when it comes down to it. The PMs decide to do what they do, even when we influence things.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:08 pm
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HalfMoon
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Joined: 07 Oct 2004
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Location: SoCal
Quote:
So much of this backstage gossip is really moot, when it comes down to it. The PMs decide to do what they do, even when we influence things.


Truth, that.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:12 pm
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weephun
Entrenched


Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC

 		Wow, the power supply in my work machine starts on fire (yes, smoke billowing out almost setting off the fire alarms) and I'm left to surf while it gets fixed and what do you know, I end up back here. ARG!

krystyn, I have never purposely grouped you with any "angry mob", I have very much appreciated the support of those that have given it, though you are adept with your biting sarcasm I will admit. I'm sorry that you ever felt lumped in with my detractors.

Have I enjoyed the fame? Yes
Have I enjoyed the infamy? Not really
Why was I leaving? 2 reasons.
1 - I was truly pissed (we'll get to that in a second).
2 - I could tell that my interaction was distracting many from the game and while it might be fun to have something to talk about during on non-update days, it was also beginning to suck my life away, endanger my work, and really get on my wife's nerves. And getting on one's wife's nerves is really bad mmmm'kay

Why pissed? Follow my time-line.

1 weephun falls in love with the ilovebees ARG and starts playing as actively as he can.
2 weephun is asked to keep a secret by and in-game character and does so.
3 The secret comes out and weephun admits to his actions publicly.
4 weephun is lambasted for having kept a secret from the META community.
5 weephun swears never to keep another secret from the META community and gives full disclosure of all of his actions.
6 weephun and his group (Boise Squad) are asked by an in-game character to help root out "traitors"
7 weephun actively does so and continues full disclosure to the META community
8 Member of the META community uses weephun's disclosure to try and discredit weephun with in-game character and place himself in a position of trust with said in-game character.


Did I really care if I lose my position with Melisaa? NO, it might even be a fun twist!

Did I feel personally betrayed by this community? YES, though I now realize that it was truly only one person and a relative new-comer at that, as many have pointed out about me, it only takes one person to ruin things Wink And it managed to get me mad quite well.

So I saw 2 choices:
1 - Continue playing the game actively and fulfilling my role but not reporting anything to the META community.
2 - Stop playing the game actively and just watch.

I have chosen #2. I may get back around to feeling like #1 (minus the not reporting part, and knowing how much phun I've had with this game so far I probably will), but for the moment, let's just all let it drop please. Mad Cow can manage Team Idaho for a week, weephun can have a break and we can all just stop debating about what impact Lt. weephun has or hasn't had on this ARG and what "rules" should be followed from now on. The antagonist is gone, everybody can just play nice now.

Let sleeping weephun's lie I always say Wink zzzzzzzz
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:02 pm
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nobodyman
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 88
Location: Gilbert, Arizona

 		Re: Yes, this is an in-game post.
Okay, there's a few distinct points to address here. Lemme try to boil them down. What are all the arguments:

1) Is it wrong to tattle on people with in-game/out-of-game information

School of thought 1 - It's wrong to tattle *regardless* of in-game, out-of-game.

School of thought 2 - It's wrong to tattle out-of-game (via meta channels), but not wrong to tattle in-game.

Personally, I am of the (probably unpopular opinion) that *both* schools of thought incorrect. Well, not so much incorrect as much as they are irrelevant. Let's examine the course of events.

  • Weephun tells Melissa that people are helping flea broadcast secret info
  • "double agent" gkrohne tells Melissa that weephun is relaying the contents of their communications with others.
  • Weephun get's pissed, vows to not share info. Because Melissa will stop communicating him, take him out of the loop, or otherwise penalize him
Let's stop right there. The thing to keep in mind is that Melissa is not real and even though people will think it's obvious, it's apparent that people don't get the ramifications of this statement. That means that the PM's already know that that Weephun is relaying his communications with others. In fact, they anticipate, expect, and want him to do so because it advances the game and get's more people involved. Therefore, I highly doubt that he will be taken out of the loop simply because it would make the game less inclusive. If anything, the PM's would have Melissa "punish" him, and alternately have the SP mention him, try to befriend him, whatever.

That said, the impact of "tattling" is irrelevant because the PM's already know the score, and if they want to create some "Adam/Weephun/HMRPita has betrayed me" story arc, they will do so with or without the assistance of a tattle-tail.


2)Dana/Melissa/SP thinks I betrayed her, now I'll be removed from the game

In my opinion, I seriously doubt it -- for the same reasons as above. Take the extreme example. Many people were pissed when Lt. Adam told Melissa that HMRPita had "betrayed" her (usint meta tools, IRC i think). I think this is laughable. Keep in mind HMRPita was talkking to Melisssa, made her cry, and then "summoned" the SP. However, both characters were (in my opinion) voiced by *the same actress*. Obviously the PM's know of the betrayal. Do you really think that the PM's are going to somehow alter the course of the game or somehow make it less enjoyable for Pita simply because a another player tells an in-game character about it? I seriously doubt it, but of course that's my opinion.

3) What is going too far?

I really shouldn't have to write this. It can be debated that gkrohne's actions or weephun's actions were wrong. Personally, I think that neither of them are wrong, but that's my opinion. Here are some things that aren't debatable:

  • Name-calling, threats, taunts, or otherwise berating people (regardless of how subtle you are). As a general rule, use of the word "asshat" is a red flag that the line has been crossed.
  • Falsifications, lies, libel, slander to hurt someone's in-game experience. For example: there were reports of individuals writing melissa and claiming that certain photographs had been faked, simply to open up a spot on the crew roster so that he/she could submit their pic. That's just dirty pool, if you ask me.
  • Crossing the line because somebody else crossed the line. Do I really have to quote your parents? Fine... I'll quote your damn parents.
    Your parents wrote:
    Two "wrongs" do not make a "right"!!!

My general take on the game is this (just my opinion): we control the game about as much as we control those Autopia go-carts in Disneyland. In the same way that the SP originally constructed her emails to us by taking bits and pieces of our individual emails, the PM's are telling their story by taking bits and pieces of our photos, emails, favorite songs, and so on. If one player drags an argument in-game or "tattles" or "betrays", the PM's simply will not 'go there".

PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:27 pm
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Platonix
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Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 174
Location: Keene, New Hampshire

 		Re: Yes, this is an in-game post.
nobodyman wrote:
The thing to keep in mind is that Melissa is not real and even though people will think it's obvious, it's apparent that people don't get the ramifications of this statement. That means that the PM's already know that that Weephun is relaying his communications with others. In fact, they anticipate, expect, and want him to do so because it advances the game and get's more people involved. Therefore, I highly doubt that he will be taken out of the loop simply because it would make the game less inclusive. If anything, the PM's would have Melissa "punish" him, and alternately have the SP mention him, try to befriend him, whatever.

That said, the impact of "tattling" is irrelevant because the PM's already know the score, and if they want to create some "Adam/Weephun/HMRPita has betrayed me" story arc, they will do so with or without the assistance of a tattle-tail.

Now, why would you believe this? First of all, the PMs know the score, but the Melissa character doesn't. Or didn't. Unlike you, the PMs understand how to separate OOG knowledge from IG knowledge and/or understand that doing so is a good thing. The more you try to apply META to how we should act IG, the more you cheapen, and ruin, the game. This applies to everyone who says "We should do this" or "We shouldn't do that because this is only a game". That's 100% pure unadulterated Bull. This may seem unduly confrontational to you. Tough. Learn how to roleplay if you want to be in a roleplaying game.
Second, every time something has happened that would, IG, be caused by one of us, it has been caused by one of us and that person has gotten mentioned. Weephun, Zudini, HMRPita, etc. have all been named on the site. If the PMs want to create another "Adam/Weephun/HMRPita has betrayed me" story arc, as you call it, then they will, but they won't make a "Some random person we just invented has betrayed me" story arc.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:13 am
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nobodyman
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 88
Location: Gilbert, Arizona

 		Re: Yes, this is an in-game post.
Platonix wrote:
Unlike you, the PMs understand how to separate OOG knowledge from IG knowledge and/or understand that doing so is a good thing. The more you try to apply META to how we should act IG, the more you cheapen, and ruin, the game.


I feel I've got a pretty good bead on seperating meta from game, though I don't know if you meant "you" in the "me" sense, or the "y'all" sense. And I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play the game per se (beyond my belief that players should not be calling other players "asshats").

Platonix wrote:
This applies to everyone who says "We should do this" or "We shouldn't do that because this is only a game". That's 100% pure unadulterated Bull. This may seem unduly confrontational to you. Tough. Learn how to roleplay if you want to be in a roleplaying game.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this one. My main concern was that there were people that were getting fairly upset (out of game) due to some other player's in-game actions. It's a bit like walking out of a D&D game and slashing some guys tires because his character cast a 20th level magic missile and killed your trusty steed.


Platonix wrote:
Second, every time something has happened that would, IG, be caused by one of us, it has been caused by one of us and that person has gotten mentioned. Weephun, Zudini, HMRPita, etc. have all been named on the site. If the PMs want to create another "Adam/Weephun/HMRPita has betrayed me" story arc, as you call it, then they will, but they won't make a "Some random person we just invented has betrayed me" story arc.

Here's where I (very respectfully) disagree, but I don't want to dwell on it because the main thrust of my post was not "we are pawns" but rather that we should all just get along and not tell each other how to play the game. Anyway, I don't think the PM's make up random people (all the player references are, to my knowledge, real people). What I mean is that (in my opinion) they are incidental to the story arc. If HRMPita didn't free the Princess, somebody else would have. Alternately, If Weephun had steadfastly protected her, the PM's would simply use a sound clip from one of the other dozens of calls where someone else gave up the princess.

In the end, regardless of what the IG characters "know", I don't think the PM's will let the story go in any direction they don't want it to go. With that in mind, I don't think it's right to get mad at a players IG actions because the game was likely going to play out that way anyhow.

Has anyone else noticed a recurrent theme here?
  • Melissa is upset because one of us is betraying her
  • The Princess is upset because one of us is betraying her
  • Dana is upset because one of us is betraying her
I don't think this is a purely organic consequence of our IG decisions. I feel it was architected. It's kinda like Survivor or the other "reality" t.v. shows -- the players aren't fictional, but the producers definitely have a hand in shaping how the drama plays out.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:24 am
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weephun
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Fuquay Varina, NC

 		Re: Yes, this is an in-game post.
A - What part of let it drop did you not understand??
B - None of us need this thread to continue, it should die quickly. Locky! please?

/large post removed due to sanity check and desire for pointless discussion to stop/

Do I worry that the game will be ruined or changed by somebody using OOG information and/or motivation? NO, the PMs have shown themselves to be too well informed and coordinated for this to happen.

Was I annoyed by a member of this communities actions? YES.
Was it just the proverbial "straw that broke this camels back"? Yes
Should I have let it get to me like it did? NO Embarassed
Did I ever expect this to explode like this? NO Embarassed

So, once again, I plead just drop it please! This discussion is going no-where productive. The in-fighting shown here, and the fact that I have been the cause of it, makes me feel like crap. For any amount that I have moved the "story" along, I have introduced the same amount of angst and unhappiness here. If that was the point of my character in this game, then so be it, but it still isn't all that phun. Thanks to the PMs of this game, I've had a great couple of months. I've enjoyed the fame and the interaction and loved the game and the story, but it has become quite apparent that we all need a break from A) the wiles of Lt. weephun and B) the META / in-game vs OOG / rules / etc. discussion that has come about because of him.

So let's take that break. Everybody take a deep breath ... in ... out. OK, there don't we all feel better now?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled ARG playing experience.
_________________
- Sean Stewart: "generally people like seeing their names on TV, although probably no one has had a more mixed experience with that then weephun, God bless him.
- Currently assisting Epic Games in their quest for world domination

PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:07 am
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