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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC|15/10 Spoilers] What is Oni Up To?
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skyhawk0000
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 		http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&oi=defmore&q=define:Jihad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:23 am
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Platonix
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Prokaryotic-Cell wrote:
Buzzkill247 wrote:
not only to wipe humanity as their religious creedo suggest (can we say ji-had?)


What do YOU MEAN by the usage of the term "ji-had?"

The term means "holy war". All right, not only was I beaten to the punch, I was also proven wrong...thank you for that enlightening link.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:24 am
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Phaedra
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Platonix wrote:
Prokaryotic-Cell wrote:
Buzzkill247 wrote:
not only to wipe humanity as their religious creedo suggest (can we say ji-had?)


What do YOU MEAN by the usage of the term "ji-had?"

The term means "holy war".


No, it does not.

The term means to "strive," or to do one's utmost, or even (and perhaps most literally) "exerted effort." I'm only going to beat this point because of the connotation the word is taking on in English due to recent events. Everyone has been using it in the news except -- notably -- Muslims.

There are two types of jihad: against oneself and against others. As the average Arab, and he or she will most likely tell you that the meaning jihad has for him or her is the daily struggle with oneself and one's less holy desires and temptations.

In the struggle against others, the basic and continuous jihad, the one mentioned first in the Quran, is jihad waged with words against false beliefs.

Unfortunately, the type of jihad that has received the most global attention is the military kind. Now, of course, it's a favorite term of both Western pundits and Islamic terrorists, who form groups called Al-Jihad and other similar monikers. But I believe that long before there were such groups, there was an Orientalist Western attachment to the term and a misunderstanding of its meaning.

I will admit, I'm guilty of using the term myself and intending that it be understood as we Westerners are prone to understand it, in reference to the Covenant.

But I want to make it clear, here, since we have people who apparently believe the word actually, literally, means "holy war," that what the Covenant are doing would not be considered a legitimate jihad by any rational Muslim.

The Quran categorically forbids fighting those who do not fight back. It forbids harming civilians, children, and even infrastructure.

Even most extremist Muslims still believe that military jihad is only acceptable against foreign occupation or oppressive powers.

Once again, sorry to sound preachy, but I think these sort of misconceptions need to be addressed.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:40 am
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skyhawk0000
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any know a better name for the covvies little sight-seeing and planet-glassing trip across the starways?

edit: actually.. couldnt a "crusade", or Crusade be a more fitting term? military movements based around the reclaimation of religiously meaningful land (old forerunner worlds/installations) and artifacts (technology and items)

just a couple cents tossed around
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:44 am
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Platonix
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 		Thank you, Phaedra. I had already learned that from skyhawk's link above, and edited my post, by the time you finished your reply, but your corroboration is always appreciated.
Skyhawk: Crusade? Possibly...I note that the Covenant's stated intent re: humans has more to do with extermination than reclamation (i.e. glassing of human colonies w/o Forerunner stuff,) but then, the Christian Crusades of infamy weren't exactly shining examples of staying on-task, either.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:49 am
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Prokaryotic-Cell
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 		I want to make sure you knew what the term jihad is actually used for and that the application of it.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:56 am
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Checksum
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 		Why don't we talk a little about what we know of the artifact. Didn't the Sleeping Princess come from the artifact? Is that what the artifact is? Is it just her, or is there more to it? Why would she be counting down? Is this something she does not know about herself?

Yikes, that's a lot of questions. I guess my point is that the artifact sounds like it's got some mysterious purpose, and we seem to be forgetting that it was the vessel that brought us SP. So presumably, the purpose of the countdown is in some way related to SP.

If we want to know more about the artifact, why don't we see if we can't get SP to spill the beans?

-checksum

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:11 am
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SuperJerms
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Checksum wrote:
Why don't we talk a little about what we know of the artifact. Didn't the Sleeping Princess come from the artifact? Is that what the artifact is? Is it just her, or is there more to it? Why would she be counting down? Is this something she does not know about herself?

Yikes, that's a lot of questions. I guess my point is that the artifact sounds like it's got some mysterious purpose, and we seem to be forgetting that it was the vessel that brought us SP. So presumably, the purpose of the countdown is in some way related to SP.

If we want to know more about the artifact, why don't we see if we can't get SP to spill the beans?

We don't know that SP came from the artifact. By now, many of us suspect that none of the participants in the story came from the artifact. The whole idea of AI's coming out of the artifact is from earlier stages of the game where we were making spec based on the very limited knowledge that we had, and noticing that SP was seemingly more informed and a bit different from the others (mainly that she came from a casket, and the only thing in-game which was casket like was the artifact).

I will be so bold as to say that most of us believe that SP is not from the artifact at all, but is instead somewhat akin to Melissa's inner child (more accurately, the humanity from within Melissa before she was made into an AI...not eliminated from the AI construct, rather locked in a glass casket inside of Mel. This casket cracked in the Apocalypso crash, freeing SP). We base this spec on many different things we know, such as that we spoke to SP through Melissa in the phase where SP was captured, and we are getting near 100% sure that the exact same thing happened to Kemal's sister Yasmine with the AI Durga.

Now we're trying to decide if Durga = Melissa (meaning that SP = Yasmine)...we don't know yet for sure, but I'm willing to guess that at two thirds of us think that is true. The jury is still out on Pious Flea, but there are four general theories on him. In what I can best tell to be order of popularity:
1) PF is a covenant virus that invaded the ship pre-crash via the intercepted covie transmission about glassing Troy.
2) PF is a human sniffer/virus program made by ONI (either Herzog or Standish, depending on if you think PF is good or bad, respectively) to hide/mine info about the Artifact, the Apocalypso, or Chawla base.
3) PF is a virus (?) from the artifact.
4) PF is a legitimate function of Melissa, like SPDR was, intent on keeping the OP's memories or getting more info if she ever falls into a problematic status (which she has, of course).


To recap, then:
- The chances of SP really having come from the artifact are at least 1:10000.
- If the artifact carried anything, it was PF.
- ^ Probably not.
- The artifact is a yet-to-be-determined device, or a MacGuffin.

I personally think it's a MacGuffin--a mysterious plot element who's only real purpose in the context of the story is to motivate characters to do things--and we might not find out what it really does without playing Halo 2. Or maybe we'll find out at the very end what it does, but until then it will continiue to be a MacGuffin.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:05 am
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Nova
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SuperJerms wrote:
I personally think it's a MacGuffin--a mysterious plot element who's only real purpose in the context of the story is to motivate characters to do things--and we might not find out what it really does without playing Halo 2. Or maybe we'll find out at the very end what it does, but until then it will continiue to be a MacGuffin.


I can easily see Cortana sending the Master Chief on a fetch quest to get his hands on this artifact before the Covenant do. After all, it's not the first time he's done so.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:13 am
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Phaedra
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skyhawk0000 wrote:
edit: actually.. couldnt a "crusade", or Crusade be a more fitting term? military movements based around the reclaimation of religiously meaningful land (old forerunner worlds/installations) and artifacts (technology and items)


Platonix wrote:
Skyhawk: Crusade? Possibly...I note that the Covenant's stated intent re: humans has more to do with extermination than reclamation (i.e. glassing of human colonies w/o Forerunner stuff,) but then, the Christian Crusades of infamy weren't exactly shining examples of staying on-task, either.


I think Crusade might be a more appropriate term for what they're doing on Earth (reclaiming an artifact) although, as Platonix mentioned, the point of the Crusades wasn't to wipe out the Muslims (although, from both the Christians and Muslim writings I've read on the subject, it appears that the Christians wouldn't have found that an unacceptable outcome and some Muslims suspected that many Christians would have preferred it).

But I think we should make up a word.

Do we have any examples of Covenant language besides what we hear in Halo (which is English played backwards and lowered several octaves)?

The English term "crusade" is the closest we have to a term meaning "holy war."

The Arabic "jihad" can be used to refer to a holy war.

In Judaism, there are three types of war. A war that G-d has ordered is called a milhemet mitzvah. However, I'm going to leave it out, because neither word alone has the connotation we're interested in, and together it's too long.

I'm going to suggest cruhad, since it nicely combines both jihad and crusade and therefore should spread the cultural-misunderstanding-offense neatly between both Christianity and Islam.

Following the example in Halo, we should then reverse it = dahurc (or perhaps da'hurk looks better - throw an apostrophe in there to make it look exotic). Record yourself saying it, reduce the pitch greatly without slowing it down, and you should sound just like an Elite.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:39 pm
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Platonix
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Phaedra wrote:
But I think we should make up a word.

Do we have any examples of Covenant language besides what we hear in Halo (which is English played backwards and lowered several octaves)?

The English term "crusade" is the closest we have to a term meaning "holy war."

The Arabic "jihad" can be used to refer to a holy war.

In Judaism, there are three types of war. A war that G-d has ordered is called a milhemet mitzvah. However, I'm going to leave it out, because neither word alone has the connotation we're interested in, and together it's too long.

I'm going to suggest cruhad, since it nicely combines both jihad and crusade and therefore should spread the cultural-misunderstanding-offense neatly between both Christianity and Islam.

Following the example in Halo, we should then reverse it = dahurc (or perhaps da'hurk looks better - throw an apostrophe in there to make it look exotic). Record yourself saying it, reduce the pitch greatly without slowing it down, and you should sound just like an Elite.

Laughing Rock On Works for me!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:20 pm
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DeceptaconS
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 		What even more interesting is the Grunts.... ? They speak hi pitch English

Examples

Grunt wrote:
He Killed Elite...RUN!!


Grunt wrote:
Bad Cyborg


So my question is why is that?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:04 pm
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skyhawk0000
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 		it could simply be a little detail in the game, tossed in for grins, just like the "big grunty thirst" egg. grunts tossing out garbled/high pitched english probably has little or no place in the greater "haloverse"
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:12 pm
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CountZero
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DeceptaconS wrote:
What even more interesting is the Grunts.... ? They speak hi pitch English

Examples

Grunt wrote:
He Killed Elite...RUN!!


Grunt wrote:
Bad Cyborg


So my question is why is that?


I was under the impression that Cortana was running translation programs 24/7 in MC's head, or at least, the programs came with the MJOLNIR armor (along with the drink holder and AM/FM radio).
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 pm
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Buzzkill247
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Prokaryotic-Cell wrote:
Buzzkill247 wrote:
not only to wipe humanity as their religious creedo suggest (can we say ji-had?)


What do YOU MEAN by the usage of the term "ji-had?"


Simple - look it up - refering to a holy war - or war sancitoned by religious purpose...... or so as I have intended it - I can't believe there was so much discussion over something so ridiculously SILLY! Get a grip... If you were offended by this reference - too freakin bad - deal....

Why? - someone get touchy about it out there? My email is listed - feel free to flame so I may laugh at your silliness...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:39 am
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