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 Forum index » Diversions » The Master Theorem
Turing Test
Moderators: Cougar Draven
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Rob0412
Kilroy

Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 2
chico_can wrote:
I'm still stuck on the last part - I can't understand what to do ...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
What is the "slanty" cipher/technique?


A synonym for "slant" is...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
"diagonal". Look for a cipher/technique that has a diagonal variant.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:07 am
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Doctroid
Greenhorn

Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 4

 		Re: Computers always lie
Renoroc wrote:
Seems to me that the computers would be honest and that the humans would be liars.


But M tells us otherwise. And he wouldn't lie, he's a huma... oh. Wait.

Quote:
I'm not good at these logic puzzles. Is there more than just figuring out the humans? Should I be typing their names out or will the numbers of who they are do?


As always, the solution is a word or phrase. You need to figure out the humans, and then use that information to find the solution word/phrase.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:12 pm
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Renoroc
Boot

Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 11

 		 Computers always lie
OK. I have sorted everyone into two groups of 6 and 4 now based on what I think is the only possible permutation of the logic puzzle that makes any sense. I guess it doesn't matter who is actually human or computer as long as you get two groups. Now I have turned the names back into their subject numbers
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
"3,4,6,8,9,10" and "1,2,5,7"
but I am not finding any sense in
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
indexing them to themselves, or to the phrases "Alan Turing" or "Turing Test"
. I'm pretty stuck. I haven't tried any hints yet because I strongly suspect they all lead right to this point. Blearrgh.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:30 pm
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scooter22
Guest


 		Re: Computers always lie
Renoroc wrote:
I'm pretty stuck. I haven't tried any hints yet because I strongly suspect they all lead right to this point. Blearrgh.


If you're really worried about losing points, then just log off and do the hints. Hint # 3 will lead you to victory (Hints 1 & 2 are as you suspect, something you already knew).

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:46 pm
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waitingforgo
Greenhorn

Joined: 12 Jul 2011
Posts: 3

 		Lies, Damn Lies, and Sadistics
I eventually muddled through this (thanks to the hints here), but I'm not sure this is solvable unless you make some assumptions about what "lying" is. (I've read many books by Raymond Smullyan, so this is a topic that is close to home.)

If I'm understanding correctly, M. is assuming that everything that a liar says is a lie. However, it seems at least as likely that a liar merely needs to lie... in other words, some aspect of their statements are untrue.

For example, let's say you know I'm a liar, and I say, "Bob and I were at the store today."

Regardless of my statement, there are actually four possible outcomes for Bob and I having been at the store:

1) Bob was at the store. I was at the store.
2) Bob was at the store. I was not at the store.
3) Bob was not at the store. I was at the store.
4) Bob was not at the store. I was not at the store.

In only one case -- #1 -- would the statement I made be true. In all other cases, I'm lying; it is not the case that "Bob and I were at the store today" is true.

Similarly, take Subject #5 (Margarette)'s statement: "Francisqui and I are humans."

Again, regardless of Margarette's statement, there are only four possibilities:


1) Magrarette is a human. Francisqui is a human.
2) Magrarette is a computer. Francisqui is a human.
3) Magrarette is a human. Francisqui is a computer.
4) Magrarette is a computer. Francisqui is a computer.

If we assume that Margarette is a human, then the logic train is clear (#1 is the only possible answer). However, if we assume Margarette is a computer, then it gets muddier; both #2, 3, and 4 would all render Margarette's statement untrue, but I believe for the puzzle to work you need to assume that #4 is reality if you conclude that Margarette is lying.

I'll need to whip my Smullyan books out of storage to see if there's a subtlety here I'm missing in truth/untruth, but on the face of it I had a hard time this time.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:18 pm
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chico_can
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 9
Rob0412 wrote:
chico_can wrote:
I'm still stuck on the last part - I can't understand what to do ...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
What is the "slanty" cipher/technique?


A synonym for "slant" is...

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
"diagonal". Look for a cipher/technique that has a diagonal variant.


Thanks Rob, I must have had the list wrong.

Looking through the rest of the posts here, I now have (what I believe to be) the right mix of humans/computers. Still coming out with gobbledygook for the "decrypted" answer though.

Argh!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:22 pm
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Renoroc
Boot

Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 11

 		Computers always lie
I figure points don't matter much the following day.

The third hint stymies me.
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I've written out the names of the 6 and 4 into a 100 square grid. None of the diagonals form words or groups of letters that turn into words.


I've looked into different cipher types which may utilize diagonals but I'm still not getting it.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:39 pm
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chico_can
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 9

 		Re: Computers always lie
Renoroc wrote:
I figure points don't matter much the following day.

The third hint stymies me.
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I've written out the names of the 6 and 4 into a 100 square grid. None of the diagonals form words or groups of letters that turn into words.


I've looked into different cipher types which may utilize diagonals but I'm still not getting it.


I thought about this too, but there are too many possibilities to do it this way; brute forcing it can't work unless you have a lot of time. By computer maybe it would be simple but I can't find an easy way to do that online (my programming skills have evaporated - I know it would be easy to code but not for me).

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:43 pm
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BryonW
Greenhorn

Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 7

 		Re: Computers always lie
After solving it, I realized that I had made a mistake - I somehow got it in my head that there were 4 humans and 6 computers, not the other way around; the description of the solution therefore gave me pause when the "as it turns out..." phrase ended exactly wrong for me. But, as others have mentioned here, as long as you get the two separate groups, the last step is pretty easy...IF you don't overthink it.


Quote:
I've looked into different cipher types which may utilize diagonals but I'm still not getting it.


Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Have you tried using only a subset, rather then all ten?


Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Calling it a 'cipher' is a bit of a stretch, actually.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:04 pm
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Renoroc
Boot

Joined: 13 Oct 2011
Posts: 11

 		Computers always lie
I solved it finally. All I can say is:
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Take care in how you spell SHIRLYANNE or you will be stuck there forever.


Thanks, all!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:35 pm
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scooter22
Guest


 		Re: Computers always lie
chico_can wrote:
Renoroc wrote:
I figure points don't matter much the following day.

The third hint stymies me.
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
I've written out the names of the 6 and 4 into a 100 square grid. None of the diagonals form words or groups of letters that turn into words.


I've looked into different cipher types which may utilize diagonals but I'm still not getting it.


I thought about this too, but there are too many possibilities to do it this way; brute forcing it can't work unless you have a lot of time. By computer maybe it would be simple but I can't find an easy way to do that online (my programming skills have evaporated - I know it would be easy to code but not for me).


This final step me eluded me until the first sentence of the 3rd clue, which reminded me instantly of
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
the Crayola Madness puzzle
whose final step was the same method and then I got it. Make sure to write your
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
10x10 grid in order (i.e., #1 - NAME, #2-NAME...) first and then note which six are Humans
before trying to solve. Or, do the
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
10x10 slant cipher first to get your 10 letters and then note which six are humans.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:42 pm
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Rogi Ocnorb
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee


Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 4266
Location: Where the cheese is free.

 		I'd appreciate it if someone who has a better mind for logic than I do and has also finished the puzzle could work backwards and tell me where I may have gone awry given a final output of "ME SAYS". I keep finding that to be a fine alternate solution; But, since I'm the only one, I must be missing something.

Alternatively, just PM me with the reason the opposite of "As it turns out" is invalid. i.e.: Which step does that fail at?
_________________
I'm telling you now, so you can't say, "Oh, I didn't know...Nobody told me!"


PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:57 pm
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chico_can
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 9

 		ARGH I feel like I'm so close but nothing works!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:07 pm
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Guest
Guest


 		Logic
There is no twisted logic here. M says:

"So in this example, I know for a fact that humans always tell the truth and computers always lie. "

always lie implies that everything that the computers say is a lie. M is not careless, the theorem text is always carefully constructed, o lead you to a specific solution. The specific ways that theorem text are constructed are designed to push you towards the answer.

Don't get hung up on the logic puzzle, it is very simple. It is easy to read a more general statement into what M says in the side text, but it is always very specific.

And for those who have gotten past the names,
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
you are not looking for a cipher, but words hidden within words


PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:19 pm
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chico_can
Greenhorn

Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 9

 		Alright, indexing in a similar fashion to the
Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Crayola Madness


gives us

Spoiler (Rollover to View):
MESKAYSNET


I can't for the life of me wrangle this into the right answer!

HELP! PLEASE!

PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:42 pm
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