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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[UPDATE][SPEC][SPOILERS!] 10/19 sound clips
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daboking
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 486
Location: 2nd star to the right

 		mythril, go back to the www.ilovebees.com/humptydumpty.html and listen to all the Jan arc and that will answer all your questions better than anything we could tell ya.

vpisteve, gilly doesn't do anything for me any more than gladys.... (visions of combat boots mashing my head in pavement)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:21 pm
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Arana
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Location: shallow grave
Mithryl wrote:
I know hwo gilly is but im blanking on Gladys.

Was she the one who told her to go to the club?


Yes, she told Jan to go to the club. She is nominally referred to as Jan's Aunt. She was also at J^2's funeral where Jan introduced her to Jersey, and Durga.

Some fools (okay mainly me and a few others) speculated that she might be an alter ego of Monster Ann (partly on the basis of her getting Jan into this mess in the first place). But that appears to now be as dead as Thin Kinkle!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:24 pm
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daboking
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 		arana, that is one SPEC I must say I am glad we all turned out to be wrong on. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:33 pm
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Spec-trum
Boot

Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 26
Nova wrote:
Kamal's headed toward Boston, too (or, at least, the east coast... but I'd put my money on Boston). Just in time for a little get-together at the end of the story.


Spoiler (Rollover to View):
Actually, he's going to Boston to see the Red Sox play game 7, and possibly catch the world series Wink


Edit to add spoiler tag
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:34 pm
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Arana
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 		If talking about her possible past as Yasmine threw Durga for a loop, what will meeting with Kamal do to her? Will Kamal embrace Durga, or be disgusted with her for turning into a machine (as Perdita feared about the possible reaction of her family to the modifications she received from the clockwork rat)?

From what Jersey said in this week's top two .wavs it is clear that Jersey's next task will be to stop Standish and try to save the world. How could this not involve recruiting Rani, Kamal, and Jan (and maybe her "relatives"). I can't wait for this friday. Will Kamal contact Rani? Will Rani contact Herzog's subordinate who was shipped off to New Mombassa?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:26 pm
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JasonShin
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 		Small question - I'm pretty sure I hear two shots in bedtime.wav , One shot, monster ann screams, another shot, and then I can't tell what's happening because it ends so quickly after that. So, the question is -

Can we assume that Gilly killed Thin Kinkle and Monster Ann? Do any of you genius people who can totally reconstruct the scene from the staging and a few aural/spatial cues show me that she didn't shoot Kinkle twice? I just assume she didn't because she wouldn't need two shots to kill someone.

Sorry if this has been answered, but I did look.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 9:14 pm
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Mithryl
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 		Is there a site with th "Confidential" wav files (With herzhog and standish) in one large wav file? I've lost track of whats going on in that storyline =\.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:07 pm
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BeeNetter
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Joined: 13 Oct 2004
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Arana wrote:
From what Jersey said in this week's top two .wavs it is clear that Jersey's next task will be to stop Standish and try to save the world.


As much as we all hate Standish, I have to wonder whether the world has to be saved from him, or if Standish is saving the world. Unless he is actually a cleverly disguised Elite, Standish isn't just killing people for fun, he's killing people because he believes it is the only way to win the war against the Covenant. He knows something about the mysterious artifact that we don't, and he is paranoid enough to kill anyone who has the potential to interfere with the artifact. The activation of the artifact is the "consummation of the truth", and Melissa is trying to prevent Durga from interfering with this. (due to the influence of the Pious Flea, which probably came from Standish)

One of the big themes in the Halo universe is that, against an enemy as powerful as the Covenant, you have to do totally unethical things just to survive. Things such as kidnapping 6 year old children for enlistment in a program that kills half of them, or allowing the enemy to kill millions of people whom you could have evacuated.

So I'm not sure if we need to save the world from Standish. It may be that Standish is saving the Earth, in his own way.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:43 pm
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Astald
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 		It's a tough call JasonShin. There are definitely two shots. Gilly is standing to the left of Jan, possibly behind her. I figure Thin and Ann are side by side, with Ann to the front and left of Jan and Thin directly in front of her. The shots are so loud that I can't tell what direction they are coming from, sounds like center speaker for both, possibly because of the echo. But I think Ann screams after the first shot, and Thin lets out a sound of pain. And after the second shot is the sound of a body collapsing. I think Gilly shot him once in a non-vital area for him to feel pain before ending his life. And that possibly she let Monster Ann live. But that is my take on the issue.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:18 am
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vpisteve
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Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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Mithryl wrote:
Is there a site with th "Confidential" wav files (With herzhog and standish) in one large wav file? I've lost track of whats going on in that storyline =\.


All those wav's can be found at www.argn.com/archives/ilb in the Assembled section.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:46 am
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TheBiggestSean
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
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BeeNetter wrote:
Arana wrote:
From what Jersey said in this week's top two .wavs it is clear that Jersey's next task will be to stop Standish and try to save the world.


As much as we all hate Standish, I have to wonder whether the world has to be saved from him, or if Standish is saving the world. Unless he is actually a cleverly disguised Elite, Standish isn't just killing people for fun, he's killing people because he believes it is the only way to win the war against the Covenant. He knows something about the mysterious artifact that we don't, and he is paranoid enough to kill anyone who has the potential to interfere with the artifact. The activation of the artifact is the "consummation of the truth", and Melissa is trying to prevent Durga from interfering with this. (due to the influence of the Pious Flea, which probably came from Standish)

One of the big themes in the Halo universe is that, against an enemy as powerful as the Covenant, you have to do totally unethical things just to survive. Things such as kidnapping 6 year old children for enlistment in a program that kills half of them, or allowing the enemy to kill millions of people whom you could have evacuated.

So I'm not sure if we need to save the world from Standish. It may be that Standish is saving the Earth, in his own way.


Standish is probably more afraid of his power base being erroded. It's amazing what people are capable of doing in terms of evil/misdeeds when it comes to THEIR personal security. If Standish knew what Rani and Herzog knew about the device, he'd disappear and act on it accordingly, but he probably thinks of it as a weapon or a bargainning tool. Hell, he probably doesn't have the faintest clue what it is, just that it's alien, his superiors dig it, and they don't want anyone to know. He's content to do whatever he can to make sure that that particular little project stays secreter than secret, blacker than black. (in terms of ops. I'm not a racist, so don't start. Wink)

Whether or not the Covenant are coming is immaterial to him - he has a job to do, and he will see that it gets done. No matter the methods.

Just the results.

Even if we do assign him this view that he thinks of himself as a hero, he's a hero for the wrong reasons. The relative moralism theme is important here, and Standish lacks that. He sees everything big pictures of black and white, not the grayscale that the Master Chief, Dr. Halsey, Jersey, Kamal, and Jan see the world in.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:52 am
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interloper
Kilroy

Joined: 02 Oct 2003
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 		Re: don't question teh pm power..
pikalek wrote:
krystyn wrote:
I suddenly had a vision of the PMs dancing around like fairies, dusting the phone receivers with crack ...

Hey, if they can [spec] slip mad cow a fortune cookie, who knows? I'd almost prefer to believe someones juiced my water supply w/ some psychtropics - makes accounting for the ILB dreams a little easier, the denial a little stronger and the experience more immersive.

interloper wrote:
It's so nice to see that some people can move on and have loads of fun...even after they have done something really ******. Sad
So nice to see Krystyn is enjoying herself. Wow.

I would encourage you to keep your critisism (esp of admins) constructive. Free speech must be balanced w/ the goal of developing a collaborative community.


I would encourage you to mind your own business.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:52 am
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Anton P. Nym
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 		Re: don't question teh pm power..
interloper wrote:
I would encourage you to mind your own business.

I would encourage you to keep your private business out of a public forum. (Or at least flush afterwards and use the air freshener... c'mon, that's revolting. Didn't your Mom teach you better than that?)

TheBiggestSean wrote:
Even if we do assign him this view that he thinks of himself as a hero, he's a hero for the wrong reasons. The relative moralism theme is important here, and Standish lacks that. He sees everything big pictures of black and white, not the grayscale that the Master Chief, Dr. Halsey, Jersey, Kamal, and Jan see the world in.

That's the theme I take away from the Halo novels; what scruples are we willing to sacrifice when fighting for survival, and what are the consequences? Dr. Halsey is having a crisis of conscience for what she's done... and John 117 is, after thirty years, starting to see the true price of what was done to him. Was it worth the price?

I've linked to Judge Haywood's marvelous closing speech in Judgement at Nuremburg before, but here's the passage relevant to the point in question here:
Quote:
There are those in our country today, too, who speak of the protection of the country. Of survival. The answer to that is: survival as what? A country isn't a rock. And it isn't an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for, when standing for something is the most difficult.

Is it wisdom to destroy what you hold most precious in order to protect it? Now, this isn't a "no-brainer" question in either direction... there are arguments both ways on this one. But I side with the Judge here.

-- Steve now has the mental image of himself standing on the Titanic's sun deck in a tuxedo, sipping one last brandy with the boys before going down like a gentleman. So yes, it can get weird.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 7:22 am
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BeeNetter
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Joined: 13 Oct 2004
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 		Re: don't question teh pm power..
Anton P. Nym wrote:
I've linked to Judge Haywood's marvelous closing speech in Judgement at Nuremburg before, but here's the passage relevant to the point in question here:
Quote:
There are those in our country today, too, who speak of the protection of the country. Of survival. The answer to that is: survival as what? A country isn't a rock. And it isn't an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for, when standing for something is the most difficult.

Is it wisdom to destroy what you hold most precious in order to protect it? Now, this isn't a "no-brainer" question in either direction... there are arguments both ways on this one. But I side with the Judge here.


I agree with this in every real-life situation. You can't turn a democracy into a dictatorship just to protect it from another country or a rebellion.

However, it is significantly different in the Haloverse. The Covenant mean to exterminate every last human being. Language such as "Your destruction is the will of the Gods" is similar to Biblical tales in which God commands Israel to destroy enemy tribes down to the last man. If the Covenant are not stopped, there will be no humans left whatsoever. Part of what's fascinating about the Haloverse is that it explores how far we're willing to go when the survival of the very human race is at stake.

John 117 may be starting to realize the horror of what's been done to him, but he can't stop fighting - otherwise the Earth will be destroyed for sure. Dr. Halsey isn't comfortable with what she's done, but she's even going to "betray her friends" to a greater extent. (whatever that means)

How much morality can we sacrifice when the survival of the human race is at stake? Quite a lot, if you ask me.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 8:23 am
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Phaedra
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BeeNetter wrote:
As much as we all hate Standish, I have to wonder whether the world has to be saved from him, or if Standish is saving the world. Unless he is actually a cleverly disguised Elite...


I knew it!

Quote:
One of the big themes in the Halo universe is that, against an enemy as powerful as the Covenant, you have to do totally unethical things just to survive. Things such as kidnapping 6 year old children for enlistment in a program that kills half of them, or allowing the enemy to kill millions of people whom you could have evacuated.


As for the last, I wonder if it was a deliberate evocation of Churchill and Coventry?

Anyway, back on topic, I'm not sure if it's safe to say that:

Quote:
One of the big themes in the Halo universe is that, against an enemy as powerful as the Covenant, you have to do totally unethical things just to survive.


People doing unethical things because they believe they need to in order to survive, but I'm not sure that we're meant to take it as the moral of the story.

Just because a character in a story (even a main character...even the hero) does something, it doesn't necessarily follow that the author agrees or is trying to support such an action.

For example, in C.S. Friedman's Coldfire trilogy, the savior of his world, the man who founded the Church that allows the settlers of his planet to survive amongst dangerous alien forces, the man who may have created the protection that his people revere as G-d, essentially sells his soul to the devil in order to see it through, becoming a rather vampiric demon that sustains itself by feeding on fear, hunting and torturing his victims.

When he finally does come face to face with a power that may be the fruit of what he's created, or (it's hinted) may actually be G-d Himself, the experience is anathaema to him, and he realizes that he is truly damned by his own intelligence, his own power, and his own resourcefulness.

Ultimately, he's involved in saving the world. Ultimately, he sacrifices himself for it, and that salvation could not have been accomplished had he not done what he did.

Does this mean that the moral of the story is that if you're trying to save the world from an alien force that feeds on humans' minds, you should go to whatever lengths are necessary? Can we assume that was what the author was trying to say?

I don't think so. I think you can read the "moral of the story" as the idea that even something that seems irredeemable can be turned to good ends, but I also think the story is too ethically complex to be reduced to having one obvious moral.

I believe the same is true of the Haloverse. I'm not sure we're supposed to read it as "Standish is right, sometimes the ends justify the means." I think we're supposed to wonder.

For example:

TheBiggestSean wrote:
Standish is probably more afraid of his power base being erroded. It's amazing what people are capable of doing in terms of evil/misdeeds when it comes to THEIR personal security. If Standish knew what Rani and Herzog knew about the device, he'd disappear and act on it accordingly, but he probably thinks of it as a weapon or a bargainning tool...<snip>...Whether or not the Covenant are coming is immaterial to him - he has a job to do, and he will see that it gets done. No matter the methods...<snip>..Even if we do assign him this view that he thinks of himself as a hero, he's a hero for the wrong reasons. The relative moralism theme is important here, and Standish lacks that. He sees everything big pictures of black and white, not the grayscale that the Master Chief, Dr. Halsey, Jersey, Kamal, and Jan see the world in.


Beenetter appears to assign relative moralism to Standish: "the ends justify the means." TheBiggestSean sees Standish as an absolutist instead. So, do we have here competing forms of moral relativism? It seems to me that there is no univocal endorsement of one type of morality; the writers are multivocal and ethically ambiguous because as far as morality goes, it's not "what the text says" so much as what we, the readers, bring to the text. In some ways, the story is reading us as much as we're reading it.

Kind of like those wonderfully morally ambiguous Biblical stories...oh wait, you got there ahead of me Smile :

BeeNetter wrote:
However, it is significantly different in the Haloverse. The Covenant mean to exterminate every last human being. Language such as "Your destruction is the will of the Gods" is similar to Biblical tales in which God commands Israel to destroy enemy tribes down to the last man.


It's debatable as to whether the divinely-ordered wars in the Bible are analogous to what the Covenant are doing; Amalek, for example, in Hebrew writings is synonomous with "evil," so it's questionable as to whether the story should be read non-allegorically, but this is probably a discussion for another time and place.

BeeNetter wrote:
How much morality can we sacrifice when the survival of the human race is at stake? Quite a lot, if you ask me.


But I think the story also implicitly raises the question as to where the line is that marks us as having sacrificed too much to continue to be considered fully human.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:59 am
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