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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Marble Hornets
[HOT!] @MarbleHornets Twitter.
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Ithilwen22
Entrenched


Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 1074
Location: Trapped in the Midwest

 		This may not be an ARG, but in my own personal headcanon part of Tim's rage is from coming here and seeing that he has somehow amassed a cult centered entirely around his sideburns. That would freak anyone out. Very Happy

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:59 am
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twistedpuppet
Entrenched


Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 950
Location: New avatar based on art made by @TheGinky for me for my birthday.

 		Re: Contacting J + Meta issues
N00bing around.
rand__althor wrote:
Roly2point0 wrote:

to sum it up:
(1) how much can we interact, have agency, inside MH nowadays? is it even possible to influence the future of the arg in anyway that is not cosmetic? (a short exchange of tweets with no effect on the entries). it dosen't seem that J even know about the community's analysis of totheark videos...
(2) how much of the internet is included in MH? can we share a google-doc with J for example?


That's something I meant to bring up on the podcast last night, but kept forgetting.

It's interesting to think about. Tim apparently found the MH entries on YouTube, watched them, but....how does that exist in-universe? Does the MH channel have over 137,000 subscribers in-game? Does each entry get tens of thousands of views? Then your point, does this community exist in-game?

I tend to think that, in-game, the MH channel on YouTube is something that doesn't have very many subscribers, and entries don't get that many views. Either that or Tim just doesn't notice or care about that. I would use Alex's line of "sharing [the videos] with the world" as proof that the channel does get the same amount of attention OOG as IG, but Alex could just generally be speaking about the whole idea of the videos being posted publicly on YouTube.

I see why this is an interesting point, but, in the end, Marble Hornets is not an ARG. Troy confirmed as much back at the GMX Expo, during their Q&A panel. There's not really that much player interaction, definitely none that affects the plot. So let's just take this for what it is, because we're not going to decide the outcome of the plot with our involvement.




Psssssst..... :V You're creating a paradox. Let's just relax and enjoy the show.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:27 pm
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Roly2point0
Greenhorn


Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Posts: 6
Location: TLV, IL

 		Re: Contacting J + Meta issues
N00bing around.
rand__althor wrote:


That's something I meant to bring up on the podcast last night, but kept forgetting.

It's interesting to think about. Tim apparently found the MH entries on YouTube, watched them, but....how does that exist in-universe? Does the MH channel have over 137,000 subscribers in-game? Does each entry get tens of thousands of views? Then your point, does this community exist in-game?

I tend to think that, in-game, the MH channel on YouTube is something that doesn't have very many subscribers, and entries don't get that many views. Either that or Tim just doesn't notice or care about that. I would use Alex's line of "sharing [the videos] with the world" as proof that the channel does get the same amount of attention OOG as IG, but Alex could just generally be speaking about the whole idea of the videos being posted publicly on YouTube.

I see why this is an interesting point, but, in the end, Marble Hornets is not an ARG. Troy confirmed as much back at the GMX Expo, during their Q&A panel. There's not really that much player interaction, definitely none that affects the plot. So let's just take this for what it is, because we're not going to decide the outcome of the plot with our involvement.


the way i see it - MH is an ARG alright.
if you let me get technical for a moment, and consider the difference between Global and Local Agency, then we are justified in saying thus:
MH gives its players a vast amount of local agency (e.g we can intentionally approach J or TTA on youtube or twitter, edit the WIKI, discuss how to assemble the puzzle that is MH here, and - well - just assembling it for ourselves and see if it sticks).
MH doe's not, however, gives us any amount of GLOBAL agency. influence over the way the puzzle will look like once complete.
that's not a flaw in any way. you have close to zero global agency while assembling a physical jigsaw puzzle. it does not make it less fun/challenging/well made.

we should also consider a situation in which troy, kiril, etc.. are reading this forum and change the story (and even the conclusion) according to the theories presented here by the community. that still dosen't mean the players will get the feeling of (global) agency - though in fact we have such a part in this creation. it would only be decent of them to mention this sort of thing, if happened, once MH is over.

we are participating in MH. that is a fact which makes it an ARG. we are, in concrete person, the target audience of J's and TTA's (the fictional characters) content. when posting something on the web, be it a youtube clip or a tweet, you intend (THE) people to watch, share, discuss and maybe reply. that is how you participate on the internet, and that is how you participate in MH - effectively making it an ARG (and not, as some claim, a semi-interactive movie).
it is quite harmful to my SOD that J wont reckon his community of followers (and now that tim did - all the more so), and that the forum and WIKI have not been officially declared OOG by now - which is probably best for all. having said all that - MH is fun, challenging and extremely well made. wish they would incorporate the community before this is over (having J address us as a collective in an entry can be a good start), but.. well.. you can't get everything. even on the internet. Exclamation

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:55 pm
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twistedpuppet
Entrenched


Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 950
Location: New avatar based on art made by @TheGinky for me for my birthday.

 		Re: Contacting J + Meta issues
N00bing around.
Roly2point0 wrote:
rand__althor wrote:


That's something I meant to bring up on the podcast last night, but kept forgetting.

It's interesting to think about. Tim apparently found the MH entries on YouTube, watched them, but....how does that exist in-universe? Does the MH channel have over 137,000 subscribers in-game? Does each entry get tens of thousands of views? Then your point, does this community exist in-game?

I tend to think that, in-game, the MH channel on YouTube is something that doesn't have very many subscribers, and entries don't get that many views. Either that or Tim just doesn't notice or care about that. I would use Alex's line of "sharing [the videos] with the world" as proof that the channel does get the same amount of attention OOG as IG, but Alex could just generally be speaking about the whole idea of the videos being posted publicly on YouTube.

I see why this is an interesting point, but, in the end, Marble Hornets is not an ARG. Troy confirmed as much back at the GMX Expo, during their Q&A panel. There's not really that much player interaction, definitely none that affects the plot. So let's just take this for what it is, because we're not going to decide the outcome of the plot with our involvement.


the way i see it - MH is an ARG alright.
if you let me get technical for a moment, and consider the difference between Global and Local Agency, then we are justified in saying thus:
MH gives its players a vast amount of local agency (e.g we can intentionally approach J or TTA on youtube or twitter, edit the WIKI, discuss how to assemble the puzzle that is MH here, and - well - just assembling it for ourselves and see if it sticks).
MH doe's not, however, gives us any amount of GLOBAL agency. influence over the way the puzzle will look like once complete.
that's not a flaw in any way. you have close to zero global agency while assembling a physical jigsaw puzzle. it does not make it less fun/challenging/well made.

we should also consider a situation in which troy, kiril, etc.. are reading this forum and change the story (and even the conclusion) according to the theories presented here by the community. that still dosen't mean the players will get the feeling of (global) agency - though in fact we have such a part in this creation. it would only be decent of them to mention this sort of thing, if happened, once MH is over.

we are participating in MH. that is a fact which makes it an ARG. we are, in concrete person, the target audience of J's and TTA's (the fictional characters) content. when posting something on the web, be it a youtube clip or a tweet, you intend (THE) people to watch, share, discuss and maybe reply. that is how you participate on the internet, and that is how you participate in MH - effectively making it an ARG (and not, as some claim, a semi-interactive movie).
it is quite harmful to my SOD that J wont reckon his community of followers (and now that tim did - all the more so), and that the forum and WIKI have not been officially declared OOG by now - which is probably best for all. having said all that - MH is fun, challenging and extremely well made. wish they would incorporate the community before this is over (having J address us as a collective in an entry can be a good start), but.. well.. you can't get everything. even on the internet. Exclamation



We don't affect the plot in any way. In fact, the only thing we do influence is that Troy needs to confirm that our theories are wrong or correct, from time to time. Such as the pipe incident. That doesn't change the plot at all. It only clarifies a point that was already shown. Writers of TV shows will often clarify certain points they were trying to make if they feel that the audience isn't understanding the message as presented. Does that make any TV show an ARG? No. The same applies to Marble Hornets.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:06 pm
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Roly2point0
Greenhorn


Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Posts: 6
Location: TLV, IL

 		Re: Contacting J + Meta issues
N00bing around.
twistedpuppet wrote:

We don't affect the plot in any way. In fact, the only thing we do influence is that Troy needs to confirm that our theories are wrong or correct, from time to time. Such as the pipe incident. That doesn't change the plot at all. It only clarifies a point that was already shown. Writers of TV shows will often clarify certain points they were trying to make if they feel that the audience isn't understanding the message as presented. Does that make any TV show an ARG? No. The same applies to Marble Hornets.


First of all - you are following J on twitter. you are subscribed to his Youtube channel. that's INTERACTING with a fictional character - no? you can't follow tony soprano on twitter. he will never retweet or replay your mention. this is what i call local agency - the ability to do small stuff, that has no long term implications on the story, yet make YOU momentarily present in the narrative nonetheless. no such thing on TV.

secondly, about the possible indirect influence this community may have on the story (by way of the writers reading this and changing stuff. maybe the very cosmology of the universe, maskys identity, even just clarifying stuff) - if something like this did happen, and the creators of MH will admit it eventually, it will give everyone involved a sense of Global agency (= influence on the big picture). something that has yet to happen, as far as i know - and please do present a concrete instance of this that you know of - on TV.
MH is much more a work in progress than traditional TV. merely by the fact that it is happening in real time. 24-7 even. and is trans-media. both of this things take it away from being a tv show.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:23 pm
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twistedpuppet
Entrenched


Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 950
Location: New avatar based on art made by @TheGinky for me for my birthday.

 		Have you looked for a twitter account for Tony Soprano? I'll bet you it probably exists AND it's a roleplaying twitter account.

My point still stands. It's not an ARG and the proverbial word-of-god stated as such. So, why are you continuing this argument when the guys who created the damn thing literally said it's NOT an ARG? You're being delusional. Your continual argument that it is an ARG is nothing but a strawman argument at best. Discussion over.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 pm
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onetruepurple
Unfettered


Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 570
Roly2point0 wrote:
MH is an ARG alright.
no

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:30 pm
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Roly2point0
Greenhorn


Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Posts: 6
Location: TLV, IL
twistedpuppet wrote:
Have you looked for a twitter account for Tony Soprano? I'll bet you it probably exists AND it's a roleplaying twitter account.

My point still stands. It's not an ARG and the proverbial word-of-god stated as such. So, why are you continuing this argument when the guys who created the damn thing literally said it's NOT an ARG? You're being delusional. Your continual argument that it is an ARG is nothing but a strawman argument at best. Discussion over.


Take it easy. take care. enjoy the show.
i still wanna develop this discussion a little further, if anyone else is interested. i'll admire it if you (twistedpuppet) refrain from replying to me 'till you chill out.

onetruepurple wrote:
Roly2point0 wrote:
MH is an ARG alright.
no

please, do elaborate.
can't see why lack of player global agency makes something not an arg. if troy wanted to make a traditional serial - why did he open the twitter account? why interact with players there IN CHARACTER? why even go trans-media? or send his crowd riddles via TTA?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:52 pm
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twistedpuppet
Entrenched


Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 950
Location: New avatar based on art made by @TheGinky for me for my birthday.
Roly2point0 wrote:
twistedpuppet wrote:
Have you looked for a twitter account for Tony Soprano? I'll bet you it probably exists AND it's a roleplaying twitter account.

My point still stands. It's not an ARG and the proverbial word-of-god stated as such. So, why are you continuing this argument when the guys who created the damn thing literally said it's NOT an ARG? You're being delusional. Your continual argument that it is an ARG is nothing but a strawman argument at best. Discussion over.


Take it easy. take care. enjoy the show.
i still wanna develop this discussion a little further, if anyone else is interested. i'll admire it if you (twistedpuppet) refrain from replying to me 'till you chill out.

onetruepurple wrote:
Roly2point0 wrote:
MH is an ARG alright.
no

please, do elaborate.
can't see why lack of player global agency makes something not an arg. if troy wanted to make a traditional serial - why did he open the twitter account? why interact with players there IN CHARACTER? why even go trans-media? or send his crowd riddles via TTA?



There is no need to elaborate. This has been explained to you multiple times. I don't even know where you get this "global agency" term. It makes no sense whatsoever. The TTA videos do not even play a part in the plot. Troy and company have said even in the DVD comments that you can watch the main series and never hear about the TTA vidoes, never watch them, and you will still get the full plot. Go google the definition of an ARG. then go read other ARGs like the Haunted Majora's Mask.

As an example of the most famous ARG, I invite you to look up "I heart Bees," the ARG that led up to the announcement of Halo 2.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:35 pm
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DJay32
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Joined: 10 Dec 2010
Posts: 87
Location: The garden party

 		I think Marble Hornets isn't an ARG because it's not a game. I mean, personally, I view it as a new media film, so it's not like I have an uncontroversial opinion myself, but the point is that it's really not a game. The videos are the actual content, and you can't interact with the videos. The Twitter account is an accompaniment that literally is nothing more than a special feature on a DVD. Because, in the finished product, that's literally all they are: The Twitter updates are just in the special features. Bonuses.

That, and I'm not a fan of the Death of the Artist philosophy, and since the creators have stated this is not an ARG, that definitely does help my viewpoint.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:23 pm
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Roly2point0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2012
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Location: TLV, IL
twistedpuppet wrote:

There is no need to elaborate. This has been explained to you multiple times. I don't even know where you get this "global agency" term. It makes no sense whatsoever. The TTA videos do not even play a part in the plot. Troy and company have said even in the DVD comments that you can watch the main series and never hear about the TTA vidoes, never watch them, and you will still get the full plot. Go google the definition of an ARG. then go read other ARGs like the Haunted Majora's Mask.

As an example of the most famous ARG, I invite you to look up "I heart Bees," the ARG that led up to the announcement of Halo 2.


Did some more reading, like you suggested.
i want to make clear that the definition for ARG i used while thinking about this issue 'till now is brooke thompsons (giantmice):
"Alternate Reality Gaming (ARG) is an experience that encourages players (you!) to interact with a fictional world using the real world to do it. [...] The one thing that ties all ARGs together is that you are interacting with the fictional world using things that you use every day to interact with the real world. Also, you aren't interacting as a character, as you would in most computer and video games."
also, if you consider the first part of wikipedias definition:
"An alternate reality game (ARG) is an interactive narrative that uses the real world as a platform and uses transmedia to deliver a story that may be altered by participants' ideas or actions." it suits MH quite a lot.
also, considering the first three design principles in the article , MH is full on in each respect.

from this end it seemed clear to me that MH is an ARG. i now understand it is NOT.
it is wildly accepted that an ARG must have high level of player influence (i'm dropping the agency jargon for now. really recommend you learn it if you wanna get serious with media studies of any kind) AND/OR puzzles that must be solved for the plot to continue. both of this (which are one in the majority of ARGs that i know of) criteria are absent from MH.

so, i ask myself, if this is not an arg - what is it?
a youtube horror series? that's the way troy and gang present it, for sure (geekmediaexpo, the dvd commentary). but why, then, is it possible to interact with THE protogonist of the show via twitter and youtube? (mind the difference between this and a fanfiction tony soprano RP client) why even bother with TTA?

a web series that goes a long way to establish ARG antics, while not being an arg Rolling Eyes
well.. can't wait for the next entry!

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:36 pm
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Roly2point0
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Joined: 20 Jun 2012
Posts: 6
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 		Damn, it is really hard spotting links on this forum. i linked to brooke thompsons site and the wikipedia ARG basic design principles on my last comment. also linked to an article with decent explanation of agency in the former page of this thread.

Cheers.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:39 pm
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twistedpuppet
Entrenched


Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 950
Location: New avatar based on art made by @TheGinky for me for my birthday.
Roly2point0 wrote:
Damn, it is really hard spotting links on this forum. i linked to brooke thompsons site and the wikipedia ARG basic design principles on my last comment. also linked to an article with decent explanation of agency in the former page of this thread.

Cheers.



Razz I switched my major from Mass Communications to computer networking back when I was in school. I know the basics, but the terms, I do not recall.

That being said, the reason why we can interact with the main character, is because probably because Troy and them like the interaction and instant feedback. Plus, it's fun. :V

Remind me in October about this and I'll ask them at GMX. Razz

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:54 pm
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Drksrpnt
Boot

Joined: 25 May 2012
Posts: 56

 		Ugh. It's been almost a full week with ZERO posts or updates on Twitter. This is just plain annoying now.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:31 pm
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pravado
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Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 1833

 		MH is not an ARG. We don't affect the story, not even a little bit.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:56 pm
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