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Addressing the Operator...
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Starkley wrote:

Anyway, Jay has acknowledged TO in the videos, just not as "The Operator." "Someone was following Alex," as well as his comparisons of later TO sightings to "the thing in Entry #1" count.


I get it that he has addressed the Operator every now and then. But it is kind of the Operator's show... You'd think they'd talk about the central "figure" more often.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:19 pm
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saksxalmo
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I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE FOR THE LENGTH OF THIS POST

Starkley wrote:

It's implied that they have talked about it, given how Alex knows immediately what Jay is talking about when he talks about "that thing" in #42, and the way Jay points out The Operator at the window for #46.


Fair enough, but I still think it's unusual that they talk about Amy so much on camera but don't talk about TO at all. And Alex could have known what Jay was talking about just because they have both had experiences with it (hell, Alex could have been planning to do something with TO in #42 before Jay screwed it up.) Also, Alex could have seen TO in #46, so they didn't necessarily talk about it off-camera.

Starkley wrote:

There isn't a real instance where The Operator has been RIGHT there and no one has noticed. #17 is kind of an anomaly, either the cameraman had it on a tripod and wasn't looking through it (the camera was stable throughout IIRC), or they just couldn't see him through the foliage.


Not true. I don't remember all of the entries that this has happened, but in entry #11 and the one where TO comes in to Alex's room (unless you assume that TO immediately teleported,) Alex didn't see him. Also the entry where tim is playing the banjo and the camera pans RIGHT OVER Oppy, but he doesn't notice. TO has shown up a lot without being seen.

Starkley wrote:

Why would they be investigating Rosswood and the abandoned building anyway, if not because of the suspicion that those are TO-related areas?


They went to the abandoned building because it had the return address of the package Jay got. That was more investigating TTA, unless they thought TO had sent it. I don't remember why they went to Rosswood (do they ever say, or is it just a meeting place in the area?) but IIRC, it seemed like Alex was LEADING Jay there, and that they hadn't really discussed TO or why they were there.

Starkley wrote:

Anyway, Jay has acknowledged TO in the videos, just not as "The Operator." "Someone was following Alex," as well as his comparisons of later TO sightings to "the thing in Entry #1" count.


Exactly, but there are so few mentions of pretty much the most central character in the series, and when he is mentioned, it's so vague. That would be like only referring to Tim as "him", "the dude", or "the guy with the sideburns" and never discussing him beyond that.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:32 pm
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Xman
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It's because the Operator itself is vague and mysterious, so they are trying to maintain those feelings with the viewers. If they kept talking about him and called him the Operator loosely and all that, it would appear as if they aren't really scared of him, plus it could definitely come off as cheesy (sorry, but in my opinion, Tribe Twelve suffers from this).

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:44 pm
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Starkley
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saksxalmo wrote:
Not true. I don't remember all of the entries that this has happened, but in entry #11 and the one where TO comes in to Alex's room (unless you assume that TO immediately teleported,) Alex didn't see him. Also the entry where tim is playing the banjo and the camera pans RIGHT OVER Oppy, but he doesn't notice. TO has shown up a lot without being seen.


Alex is a special case for obvious reasons. TO likes to hang in his house, and given what happens to Alex later in the series, I wouldn't be too surprised whenever Alex stares blankly while shadows pass by him.

Similarly to the thing about the tripod in #17, just because the camera pans over in that entry, doesn't mean that someone was looking through it. We don't know that line-of-sight contact was made with Slendy.

Edit: Even if TO does have a way to filter perceptions, it uses it VERY enigmatically. Even more so than everything else it does; appearing blatantly in daylight around like three people is pretty...odd for something that could keep people from noticing it.

saksxalmo wrote:

They went to the abandoned building because it had the return address of the package Jay got. That was more investigating TTA, unless they thought TO had sent it. I don't remember why they went to Rosswood (do they ever say, or is it just a meeting place in the area?) but IIRC, it seemed like Alex was LEADING Jay there, and that they hadn't really discussed TO or why they were there.


Alex was the one who sent the package from that address, or at least, #36 implies that. I mean, the video was apparently of Alex asking Jay for help. You could say it was Totheark, but the thing is, Totheark using the word "Help" would be kind of a showstopper.

Unless I'm wrong and the package wasn't the thing containing #26? I'm working off of memory right now.

saksxalmo wrote:
Exactly, but there are so few mentions of pretty much the most central character in the series, and when he is mentioned, it's so vague. That would be like only referring to Tim as "him", "the dude", or "the guy with the sideburns" and never discussing him beyond that.


Again, they don't have a name they could call him, and if Alex revealed that he knew to call it "Operator," that might give the game away when Jay started having too many questions to deflect. Really, if there wasn't a mythos in place, what would you call Slenderman?

And they don't have much to say about him either. Jay can never remember his encounters with it, and knows very little about it, and Alex can only say so much without making Jay have too many questions as a result.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:47 pm
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saksxalmo
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Starkley wrote:

Alex is a special case for obvious reasons. TO likes to hang in his house, and given what happens to Alex later in the series, I wouldn't be too surprised whenever Alex stares blankly while shadows pass by him.


Yes, but this was early on in the series before Alex went batshit insane. There was definitely some TO influence going on there, whether you choose to call it a "perception filter" (I watch too much Doctor Who, lol) or not. And you said that it had never happened outside entry #17, so I'm just showing you that's not true.

Starkley wrote:

Similarly to the thing about the tripod in #17, just because the camera pans over in that entry, doesn't mean that someone was looking through it. We don't know that line-of-sight contact was made with Slendy.


Yeah, that's not a very good reason to look over him though. When there's another person (or person-like entity) in the same room with you, you're bound to notice it under normal circumstances. Even if you're not looking directly at it, Tim should have seen it either in the camera's screen (it it had one), glanced over it, or seen it in his peripherals. Come on, people who watch this series see TO when he ISN'T there. Tim has 10+ years of paranoia and knowledge of TO, yet doesn't take a second look when there's someone else in the room with him? It's a little unlikely.

Starkley wrote:

Edit: Even if TO does have a way to filter perceptions, it uses it VERY enigmatically. Even more so than everything else it does; appearing blatantly in daylight around like three people is pretty...odd for something that could keep people from noticing it.


Not really, if you can keep people from noticing you, wouldn't you go wherever you want?

Starkley wrote:

Alex was the one who sent the package from that address, or at least, #36 implies that. I mean, the video was apparently of Alex asking Jay for help. You could say it was Totheark, but the thing is, Totheark using the word "Help" would be kind of a showstopper.


No, TTA does tons of crazy stuff. Nothing he does is a showstopper. And it depends on how you interpret what Alex said. "…hotel you were at, what room you were at and then get a package delivered to your door. You're not exactly hard to find." I always thought the cut off part in the beginning was "He [TTA] knew what hotel you were at, what room you were at and then get a package delivered to your door. [Therefore] You're not exactly hard to find.

The reason I think it was TTA was because Jay got a text from "a strange number" that gave him the date when the package would arrive. Presumably this is not Alex's number, otherwise Jay would have recognized it when Alex called or Alex has a second phone. But if Alex wanted help AND had sent the text, why didn't he just call Jay and ask for help?

Starkley wrote:

Again, they don't have a name they could call him, and if Alex revealed that he knew to call it "Operator," that might give the game away when Jay started having too many questions to deflect. Really, if there wasn't a mythos in place, what would you call Slenderman?


Hoody and tothepark don't really have names, either, but that hasn't stopped Jay from talking about them directly. Same applies to Masky before he was unmasked. And even if he doesn't have a name, they don't seem curious about finding out where he came from, what he does, and why he's here. Like I said, all the investigations are centered around the human characters, not the most important non-human one.

Starkley wrote:

And they don't have much to say about him either. Jay can never remember his encounters with it, and knows very little about it, and Alex can only say so much without making Jay have too many questions as a result.


I think this relates to my "perception filter" theory.

And I agree with the person who said it would sound silly if they gave him a name themselves and talked about him all the time. The fact that they DON'T talk about him is what makes him mysterious and scary. I don't think this is bad storytelling, but I think it's worth theorizing about (although our theories will probably never be confirmed, just like the teleportation theory...)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:38 pm
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Lithp
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There just isn't much to say about it that isn't either obvious or weird.

"Alex is being followed by a monster that has no face."

Obvious.

"Tim, have you seen a monster that has no face recently?"

Weird.

The only time it was really strange was when Jay & Alex didn't talk about it much, but as time went on, we began to see that wasn't the Happy Power Team-Up it first appeared to be.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:41 pm
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Starkley
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saksxalmo wrote:
Yes, but this was early on in the series before Alex went batshit insane. There was definitely some TO influence going on there, whether you choose to call it a "perception filter" (I watch too much Doctor Who, lol) or not. And you said that it had never happened outside entry #17, so I'm just showing you that's not true.


I'm saying that Alex has shown that The Operator can be right in front of him with his full consciousness (using that word tentatively, but he seemed pretty alert/awake in #26 and #46) present and just not react. Plus, he was lying down and trying to sleep in #11, so he could have just as easily not noticed it. When he looked around he couldn't find anything - OH. When I said that I meant "right there" as in "the person could definitely see them in their field of vision." And the times where that happened later (#23, one or two of the forties), Alex's sanity was totally suspect.

saksxalmo wrote:
Yeah, that's not a very good reason to look over him though. When there's another person (or person-like entity) in the same room with you, you're bound to notice it under normal circumstances. Even if you're not looking directly at it, Tim should have seen it either in the camera's screen (it it had one), glanced over it, or seen it in his peripherals. Come on, people who watch this series see TO when he ISN'T there. Tim has 10+ years of paranoia and knowledge of TO, yet doesn't take a second look when there's someone else in the room with him? It's a little unlikely.


Eh, yeah, sure, it's a little unlikely. But I mean, Slendy was there in #7, and while Alex noticed it, Brian didn't. All he had to do was turn around. So I could see a similar situation playing out here.


saksxalmo wrote:

Not really, if you can keep people from noticing you, wouldn't you go wherever you want?

I was referring to Entry #12. He appears during an MH shoot where everyone can - and audibly does - see him. If there wasn't a reason to use a perception filter there, then I don't see why there had to be some later.

saksxalmo wrote:
No, TTA does tons of crazy stuff. Nothing he does is a showstopper. And it depends on how you interpret what Alex said. "…hotel you were at, what room you were at and then get a package delivered to your door. You're not exactly hard to find." I always thought the cut off part in the beginning was "He [TTA] knew what hotel you were at, what room you were at and then get a package delivered to your door. [Therefore] You're not exactly hard to find.

The reason I think it was TTA was because Jay got a text from "a strange number" that gave him the date when the package would arrive. Presumably this is not Alex's number, otherwise Jay would have recognized it when Alex called or Alex has a second phone. But if Alex wanted help AND had sent the text, why didn't he just call Jay and ask for help?


TTA clearly needs Jay's help to find "the ark." When has he ever used the word "Help"? Totheark doesn't make requests, he manipulates. And TTA is actually very consistent. His vocabulary consists of "Watching, see you, remember/forget, coming, waiting" etc.

Plus, if Alex knew all that, assumedly he would know where Jay was too. Also, because Alex took on the leadership role, and because of the fact that all the investigation was seemingly just subterfuge for Alex to get a chance to find out how much Jay knew, and then kill him, I think it makes more sense for Alex to have been the one who found Jay first. Jay doesn't exactly have the best investigative skills; him finding Alex on his own would be kind of a leap.

As for why Alex wouldn't use his own number, for the same reason he wouldn't use his own address. Jay's recording everything. If Alex can get a gun, he can easily borrow a phone or get a prepaid one. Also, Jay's kind of a bumbling buffoon. I think Alex would want to be able to find Jay on his own terms rather than the other way around. A dude as paranoid as Alex would make sure as much was under his control as possible, including when they meet and how.

saksxalmo wrote:
Hoody and tothepark don't really have names, either, but that hasn't stopped Jay from talking about them directly. Same applies to Masky before he was unmasked. And even if he doesn't have a name, they don't seem curious about finding out where he came from, what he does, and why he's here. Like I said, all the investigations are centered around the human characters, not the most important non-human one.


Well, there's always Entry #22...anyway, investigating TO would be the height of stupidity for any individual character, so maybe that's why Jay focuses on the humans? Alex was a major priority for him initially because he was worried TO had done something to him.

Then, during the seven months, it was Amy. From Jay's point of view, it could very easily have seemed neglectful to twiddle around looking into a monster they have no way of really investigating (besides trouncing around the forest, which they do anyway) when the person they know is missing, Amy, could be in danger. It's reasonable to assume that a human can leave traces and be found. They don't even know how to go about finding The Operator; it finds them. And, obviously, Alex's goal is to make sure TO isn't investigated.

Season 3 opens up after Jay has been left alone by The Operator for some time, until he decides to step onto some more MH territory. Investigating Tim makes sense because TIm was the last person to have contact with Alex. Find out what Tim knows, find Alex, stop Alex, stop The Operator. This course of events seems reasonable to me.

And he's got absolutely no trace to go on as far as Jessica goes except for Tim, too. Tim is kind of the key to all of this, especially given how deep Tim's connection seems to run to The Operator.

In some ways, watching the tapes IS investigating The Operator. You can't just investigate something inhuman that leaves no traces; you need to do it through the people who come into contact with it. I mean really, how is Jay going to go investigate a paranormal creature? It would be the same as investigating a dragon. No reliable source or anything to go on.

saksxalmo wrote:

I think this relates to my "perception filter" theory.

I mean that he wipes memories of encounters with it. Jay can't remember anything from the seven months; #60 was the first time he encounters it since then, and he remembers it. He still remembers encountering it, and knows that he did. He just doesn't remember the details of the event itself. Still, TO didn't escape his perceptions.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:04 am
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saksxalmo
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Note: This is going to be very long and rambly because it's late at night (oh wait.... early morning) and I'm tired and too lazy to edit. So excuse me.

Starkley wrote:

I'm saying that Alex has shown that The Operator can be right in front of him with his full consciousness (using that word tentatively, but he seemed pretty alert/awake in #26 and #46) present and just not react. Plus, he was lying down and trying to sleep in #11, so he could have just as easily not noticed it. When he looked around he couldn't find anything - OH. When I said that I meant "right there" as in "the person could definitely see them in their field of vision." And the times where that happened later (#23, one or two of the forties), Alex's sanity was totally suspect.


But what I'm saying is that other characters have also "missed" TO when he was "right there". You can't just throw out #17 or say that they never looked in that direction (maybe Tim didn't, but everyone else was opposite him.)
And TO showed up twice in #11. That's why the description says something like "Alex missed something" (which is, again, an example of being vague about TO.) And I still think that Alex was not insane enough in earlier entries (maybe by 46 he was, but not with the others). And even if his insanity was the reason he didn't react, it would still fall under a perception filter-like effect because it means that TO causes a mental illness that makes him hard to perceive/react to. If that makes sense.

[/quote]
Eh, yeah, sure, it's a little unlikely. But I mean, Slendy was there in #7, and while Alex noticed it, Brian didn't. All he had to do was turn around. So I could see a similar situation playing out here.[/quote]

But Brian was completely facing the wrong way. The way the camera panned in #5...4? 5? would mean that when Tim turned, his head must have faced TO at some point. Unless his head turned the opposite direction of the camera, which isn't possible, TO should have been in his field of vision at some point.

Also, I think that entry #7 was father along in Alex's exposure to TO, so it's possible that he had seen him enough times to recognize him (like the Silence in Doctor Who), but it was before the insanity set in. This would explain why Brian didn't notice him and why the (possible) other person in the car didn't notice him.

Starkley wrote:

I was referring to Entry #12. He appears during an MH shoot where everyone can - and audibly does - see him. If there wasn't a reason to use a perception filter there, then I don't see why there had to be some later.


The fact that they didn't know he was an eldritch abomination and just thought he was either Tim or some random guy could fall under the category of perception filter. Also, the perception filter thing could be like memory loss, slendersickness, and the distortions. They don't happen EVERY time you see TO, but there's enough of a trend that you could say it's one of his features.

Starkley wrote:

TTA clearly needs Jay's help to find "the ark." When has he ever used the word "Help"? Totheark doesn't make requests, he manipulates. And TTA is actually very consistent. His vocabulary consists of "Watching, see you, remember/forget, coming, waiting" etc.


He also likes to mock people. He could have been mocking Alex. Or the tape could have been made by Alex and sent by TTA. And it's not fair to say that because he hasn't said "Help" before, he can never say it. He also said "poison" once, and that didn't seem to do with anything. And he keeps on saying "waiting for you." That kind of implies a request rather than manipulation, no? And manipulative people do things like fake distress in order to lure you and your psychotic friend to abandoned houses where they can attack you with knives. So... yeah.

Starkley wrote:

Plus, if Alex knew all that, assumedly he would know where Jay was too. Also, because Alex took on the leadership role, and because of the fact that all the investigation was seemingly just subterfuge for Alex to get a chance to find out how much Jay knew, and then kill him, I think it makes more sense for Alex to have been the one who found Jay first. Jay doesn't exactly have the best investigative skills; him finding Alex on his own would be kind of a leap.


Ok, that's all fine and dandy, but you're missing the original point. You said that the reason for the investigations was to find TO/find out more about him. You're changing your position now to say that the reason for the investigations was subterfuge for Alex to kill Jay. The point is... There's no point anymore because it doesn't really relate to the thread anymore and we're just arguing pointless details that really could go either way and I don't even know how we got here and this sentence is too long.

Starkley wrote:

As for why Alex wouldn't use his own number, for the same reason he wouldn't use his own address. Jay's recording everything. If Alex can get a gun, he can easily borrow a phone or get a prepaid one. Also, Jay's kind of a bumbling buffoon. I think Alex would want to be able to find Jay on his own terms rather than the other way around. A dude as paranoid as Alex would make sure as much was under his control as possible, including when they meet and how.

This isn't really relevant anymore, but I'd just like to point out that it's kind of weird that Alex later gave Jay his phone number and address if he didn't want to be found. What would be the purpose of changing your number for a single text if you're just going to use your actual number later? And he wasn't very private about his address, either, considering Hoody, Masky, and Jay all knew where he lived and Jay even managed to get the key...

Starkley wrote:

Well, there's always Entry #22...anyway, investigating TO would be the height of stupidity for any individual character, so maybe that's why Jay focuses on the humans? Alex was a major priority for him initially because he was worried TO had done something to him.


Ok, I can see that. But I still think that most people in those circumstances would at least mention TO. Jay typically makes notes/summations in each entry about things that have happened, no matter how painfully obvious they are to the viewer. Wouldn't you expect him to list the effects TO has on people? Or at least say something?

Starkley wrote:

Then, during the seven months, it was Amy. From Jay's point of view, it could very easily have seemed neglectful to twiddle around looking into a monster they have no way of really investigating (besides trouncing around the forest, which they do anyway) when the person they know is missing, Amy, could be in danger. It's reasonable to assume that a human can leave traces and be found. They don't even know how to go about finding The Operator; it finds them. And, obviously, Alex's goal is to make sure TO isn't investigated.


But the most likely thing that happened to Amy was that TO did something to her (took her, killed her, scared her away, etc.) How could they investigate her disappearance without looking into what caused it?
I don't think you can bring Alex's intentions into things because we don't know what he's doing. But we've seen Jay do the same thing with Jessica. The cause of her disappearance was likely TO related (maybe Masky/TTA related, but I don't think that's plausible and we haven't seen evidence of it) but Jay doesn't investigate the cause. If there's no perception filter, then wouldn't Jay eventually see the link between the disappearances and try addressing the cause, seeing as just "investigating" isn't getting him anywhere?

Starkley wrote:

Season 3 opens up after Jay has been left alone by The Operator for some time, until he decides to step onto some more MH territory. Investigating Tim makes sense because TIm was the last person to have contact with Alex. Find out what Tim knows, find Alex, stop Alex, stop The Operator. This course of events seems reasonable to me.


He never says anything about Tim being stalked by TO for some time, even though he's had slendysickness for a while. It's like they can see the symptoms, but they either can't see or can't talk about what causes it. Jay never talks about stopping TO, even though that should be his goal. Maybe he can't say it or can't think about it?

Starkley wrote:

And he's got absolutely no trace to go on as far as Jessica goes except for Tim, too. Tim is kind of the key to all of this, especially given how deep Tim's connection seems to run to The Operator.


That would make TO the key to all of this, though. And yeah, he's scary, but there has to be SOMETHING they can do to investigate him. Or if they REALLY don't want to investigate TO, Jay could at least compile notes of things he knows about him (like certain unfiction users, no? wink wink nudge nudge). If he can't fight him or track him down, the least he can do is try to avoid him by trying to find patterns in his behavior.

But he doesn't even do that... Has he even said anything about the fact that TO doesn't have a face?

Starkley wrote:

In some ways, watching the tapes IS investigating The Operator. You can't just investigate something inhuman that leaves no traces; you need to do it through the people who come into contact with it. I mean really, how is Jay going to go investigate a paranormal creature? It would be the same as investigating a dragon. No reliable source or anything to go on.


I see what you're saying, but I disagree. He doesn't take notes on TO, he doesn't interview people who have come into contact with him, he doesn't describe him in detail... He set up a security camera once, but IIRC, that was because of Masky. The most he's done directly to TO was jumping at him in #50 or #51, and we don't even know that he did that. He could have been sucked in. He doesn't seek him out-- the only times he goes to TO-infected places is to look for physical things or people. He never goes there looking for TO.

Starkley wrote:

I mean that he wipes memories of encounters with it. Jay can't remember anything from the seven months; #60 was the first time he encounters it since then, and he remembers it. He still remembers encountering it, and knows that he did. He just doesn't remember the details of the event itself. Still, TO didn't escape his perceptions.

I think TO just doesn't have a very consistent perception filter. And wouldn't wiping memories specific to himself kind of fall under that category as well? I think that TO has a perception filter that sometimes makes him unnoticeable, sometimes makes him seem like a normal person, and sometimes erases memories of him. I think that (because I read/watch too much scifi and fantasy stuff), it can be "broken" by getting a good look at him, like in entry #7. I think it's related to/a symptom of slendersickness, which could explain why it seems to affect Tim and Alex more strongly at some points.

But this is all hypothetical because I doubt Trosephim is ever going to confirm anything. Smile

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:49 am
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Starkley
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That's a lot, so I'm just going to pinpoint one thing (I did read it all, and I think we're at the point where neither of us is gonna get anywhere arguing further):

saksxalmo wrote:

Ok, that's all fine and dandy, but you're missing the original point. You said that the reason for the investigations was to find TO/find out more about him. You're changing your position now to say that the reason for the investigations was subterfuge for Alex to kill Jay. The point is... There's no point anymore because it doesn't really relate to the thread anymore and we're just arguing pointless details that really could go either way and I don't even know how we got here and this sentence is too long.


I'm saying Alex and Jay would have to have different motives here. Alex misleading Jay while at the same time leading Jay on with the hope that there's some information on The Operator that Alex could lead Jay to - that would be why Jay's following Alex, if not just to help look for Amy. But yeah, at this point I forgot why I brought this up, except maybe that Jay thought that in following Alex around he might get some TO-related answers? Alex though, wouldn't really be giving those away, he just wants to learn what Jay knows and kill him. So, Jay's following Alex around looking for answers, while Alex is purposefully not giving any, and that's why we don't really see it being discussed. If that even makes sense.

Other than that, yeaaaah. But TO doesn't wipe memories specific to itself, it wipes out entire swathes of memory. Like Tim's broken leg, or everything that happened in a seven month period. So I don't think that can be related to a "filter," no.

I guess, I just feel like MH's style is to keep us as much in the dark about TO as possible. Jay has seen the Operator symbol over fifty to a hundred times by now? He's addressed its presence directly only twice, but he admits that he's seen it a zillion times before. I figure it's the same with The Operator. So I don't really see the need for an explanation as to why they don't talk about The Operator that much.

And he did kind of interview Tim about it in #15. He doesn't have of anyone else to talk to about it, really. Again, the Alex-Jay dynamic is iffy because Alex was never being completely straight with Jay, ever.

And I stand by "going looking for TO" requiring a death wish.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:18 am
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Oh criminey. And here I was thinking I'd never have to log in again and could just stalk and lurk here until the final season ran out...

Anyhow, I think it IS sort of odd that no real history or research on this entity that is the cause of all of this nonsense has ever been revealed. We get a vague-ass campfiresque ghost story about people being stretched by trees that is, in my opinion very randomly placed in the series. It's just like Alex drops it in there and then it's never touched or mentioned again. After that, nada. No one does any googling, library research -- nothing that would or could develop our understanding of the REAL villain of this story. In my opinion, I feel like TO is very underdeveloped which at THIS stage in the story is kind of boring and less and less scary as we roll on. At one point, Jay was fumbling through Alex's things and found a funky wicca-y looking book -- WHERE DID THAT GO? So many little loose ends (like that goddamned bullet) that I feel like will never be tied up, because they were tossed in because it seemed like "a good idea at the time" or "kinda cool" at the time -- take your pick. And that makes me sad, because if they COULD tie them all up, I think that would make this series the best ever. That's right. I said it -- EVER. Razz

But as far as the ability to SEE The Operator goes -- did it ever occur to you that perhaps the longer this goes on -- the stronger a being like this can get? So many people are "gone" -- what has happened to them? If TO feeds on them or dissapears them somehow -- well maybe that's how he feeds. Once he ate off of some of the MH crew, he was strong enough to employ minions -- like Masky/Tim and/or Alex -- and now he's appearing more and more and wiping more memories (and that probably costs him energy or something to do it every time) -- so I'd imagine he has to eat and stock up to be able to do it again. Maybe that's why sometimes you CAN see him and other times you can't. Why sometimes you remember seeing him and other times you don't -- it all depends on his level of power and how much he's had to eat.

But I still say that if Tim can google the series -- Jay can google the Operator. Why hasn't he done some due dilligence?

Mkay, back to my hidey hole now. Confused

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:24 am
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saksxalmo
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Starkley wrote:

I'm saying Alex and Jay would have to have different motives here. Alex misleading Jay while at the same time leading Jay on with the hope that there's some information on The Operator that Alex could lead Jay to - that would be why Jay's following Alex, if not just to help look for Amy. But yeah, at this point I forgot why I brought this up, except maybe that Jay thought that in following Alex around he might get some TO-related answers? Alex though, wouldn't really be giving those away, he just wants to learn what Jay knows and kill him. So, Jay's following Alex around looking for answers, while Alex is purposefully not giving any, and that's why we don't really see it being discussed. If that even makes sense.

I was under the impression that the "official" reason Alex gave Jay for investigating was to find Amy, with the possible promise of "answers" along the way... The problem being that "answers" could mean anything. If he meant answers about TO, that falls under the category of vagueness about him.

Starkley wrote:

Other than that, yeaaaah. But TO doesn't wipe memories specific to itself, it wipes out entire swathes of memory. Like Tim's broken leg, or everything that happened in a seven month period. So I don't think that can be related to a "filter," no.

Yeah, I don't remember what my train of thought was here. I had a response to that, but it's late, and I've totally forgotten it. Razz

Starkley wrote:

I guess, I just feel like MH's style is to keep us as much in the dark about TO as possible. Jay has seen the Operator symbol over fifty to a hundred times by now? He's addressed its presence directly only twice, but he admits that he's seen it a zillion times before. I figure it's the same with The Operator. So I don't really see the need for an explanation as to why they don't talk about The Operator that much.


This is very true. I was trying to say that by saying that it wasn't the result of bad storytelling, but I guess I should have been more explicit and just said that it's GOOD storytelling.

Starkley wrote:

And he did kind of interview Tim about it in #15. He doesn't have of anyone else to talk to about it, really. Again, the Alex-Jay dynamic is iffy because Alex was never being completely straight with Jay, ever.


The Tim thing doesn't really count because at that point Jay just thought TO was a guy in a suit, or at least just referred to him that way. I'd have to rewatch the entry, but IIRC he didn't really say much about him (either due to a "filter" or not to seem crazy, it could go either way...) And Tim said he didn't remember him, which I think (based on new evidence) was probably a lie or the result of a "filter".

Starkley wrote:

And I stand by "going looking for TO" requiring a death wish.


Well... Technically the only person who has died was killed by Alex, not TO. Smile He's scary, but relatively he hasn't done too much damage yet.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:34 am
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Starkley
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saksxalmo wrote:
I was under the impression that the "official" reason Alex gave Jay for investigating was to find Amy, with the possible promise of "answers" along the way... The problem being that "answers" could mean anything. If he meant answers about TO, that falls under the category of vagueness about him.


Yeah. I'm not arguing that it wasn't vague, I'm just saying Jay could have followed Alex expecting to learn something about TO through all of this. He sure as hell recognizes TO for what it is twice during those seven months, in both #40 and #47 (or whichever one it is where he breaks into Alex's house at night).

saksxalmo wrote:
The Tim thing doesn't really count because at that point Jay just thought TO was a guy in a suit, or at least just referred to him that way. I'd have to rewatch the entry, but IIRC he didn't really say much about him (either due to a "filter" or not to seem crazy, it could go either way...) And Tim said he didn't remember him, which I think (based on new evidence) was probably a lie or the result of a "filter".


Well, he can't just come right out and say "Did you see a nine-foot tall faceless thing in a business suit following Alex around?" I assume that Jay knew by that point that TO wasn't exactly normal. He doesn't always call it a person, he says "the figure" in #2 and "whatever was following Alex" in #10.

And as far as Tim goes, I'm calling memory wipes again, but Tim is kind of a grey area right now until we get something more definite from the current entries.

Anyway, Jay is always slow to talk about ANYTHING that happens in the series. It took him a while to acknowledge Totheark, for example. I feel like people just keyed into The Operator specifically when Jay is like this with pretty much everything. You really could have made the argument that Jay can't see the Operator symbol until 60.5. He's talked less about it than about The Operator.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:45 pm
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Magyk
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The problem is not that they fail to talk about the Operator, but that they don't discuss him at all.

The characters have no problem saying "What WAS that thing?" but they never actually elaborate or give any theories on what it actually is.

Seriously, they could throw in an entry where they discuss "Maybe its from outer-space," etc.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:00 pm
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Starkley
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Magyk wrote:
Seriously, they could throw in an entry where they discuss "Maybe its from outer-space," etc.


Who's "They" going to be?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:33 pm
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The Reverend
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Don't forget that Jay actually addressed The Operator before he collided with him in #51. It's all distorted but I can distinctly make out him telling Oppy to "leave us alone!"

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:01 pm
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