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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423
Zarggg wrote:
We still don't really know that Tim was running TTA in seasons 1 and 2. I'm starting to feel more and more like whoever we finally discover is TTA has been TTA all along.


We know they were in the same places at the same times, and that Tim appeared in multipe videos (meaning that at the very least he is a contributor, and therefore a part of totheark), the fact that totheark as referred to Tim as "me", and that he and the hooded guy have been shown working together. We don't know for sure that it's been both of them the entire time, but we do know that it's been Tim for at least season 1.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:09 am
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Jingleman
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Joined: 29 Aug 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Texas
Geneaux486 wrote:
Zarggg wrote:
We still don't really know that Tim was running TTA in seasons 1 and 2. I'm starting to feel more and more like whoever we finally discover is TTA has been TTA all along.


We know they were in the same places at the same times, and that Tim appeared in multipe videos (meaning that at the very least he is a contributor, and therefore a part of totheark), the fact that totheark as referred to Tim as "me", and that he and the hooded guy have been shown working together. We don't know for sure that it's been both of them the entire time, but we do know that it's been Tim for at least season 1.


It's faulty logic to say that Tim was in a video, therefore he was a contributor, therefore he was a part of totheark. These things do not necessarily follow from one another. There could have been a number of reasons why he was in TTA videos; it is becoming more and more clear that his relationship with at least Hoody, who is more and more likely to be TTA, is the relationship of a manipulated, used minion and his master. We have no reason to believe that that relationship was any different in the past than it is now.

If by TTA referring to Tim as "me," you mean "Signal," it is not so certain that he meant Tim/Masky. I covered this more in the "Who is TTA" thread recently, but the gist is that if TTA was calling Jay to meet him, it's not unlikely that he sent Tim to knock him out and take him to the "lair" or whatever, just as a thousand TV mob bosses send their goons for the hero every week on TV. That's a good explanation of what happened in 18, after Jay went to "find" TTA. Masky jumped him and brought him to TTA; after they finished with him they left him in his car, sans knife.

The point is that it is by no means certain that Tim was TTA or part of it in season one, and we are beginning to get a more concrete picture of the way TTA works now, so unless otherwise explained in the videos, we have to assume that the current nature of TTA (Hoody, probably himself alone) has always been the nature of TTA, and all other associations were TTA manipulating other characters.

TTA, by definition, is the one who sets the TTA agenda, not the ones manipulated into helping with it.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:11 am
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
Posts: 2423
Jingleman wrote:
It's faulty logic to say that Tim was in a video, therefore he was a contributor, therefore he was a part of totheark.


Not when you look at all of the facts. Tim appeared in multiple TTA videos, sitting still, facing the camera, which was clearly set on a solid surface because the frame was stable. This means he's contributed to those videos, and therefore contributed, willingly, to the totheark channel. Keep in mind that totheark is, at this point, not the name of a single entity, it's a youtube channel, and if Tim willingly contributes to it, he's a part of it.
Not to mention the fact that totheark has filmed Jay while in Brian's house, a location we have never seen the hooded man in or around, but we know Tim frequented the place. We also know that totheark posted a video calling Jay out for filming himself around the same time Jay's security cam picked up Tim's intrusion, but never did it catch the hooded guy snooping around, therefore it stands to reason that the knowlege of Jay's growing paranoia touched on in that particular totheark vid came directly from Tim himself. Then, of course, there's the fact that one of the totheark videos ends with "Come back. Find me." Followed immediately by Jay going back to Brian's house and finding Tim. Factor in the heavy implications that the hooded man, who's existence is not known until season 2, also contributes heavily to the totheark channel, the fact that totheark, while referring to Tim as "me", has also referred to itself as "we" and "us", and the fact that on at least one occasion the hooded man and Tim have been shown working together, the most likely conclusion is that they are both contributors to the totheark channel.

Quote:
we have to assume that the current nature of TTA (Hoody, probably himself alone) has always been the nature of TTA


We don't have to assume anything of the sort. In fact, that in and of itself is faulty logic. The overall situation has changed so much at this point that it stands to reason totheark's nature has changed as well. In fact, totheark's nature has never been static. If you assume that the hooded man is totheark, and has been totheark this entire time, then you have to acknowlege the fact that his nature has changed. In season 1 he didn't appear at all. In season 2, he was slightly more direct and enlisted Tim's aid, and in season 3 he's extremely direct, not only breaking into Tim's residence but filming himself doing so, exposing himself on a level he hadn't done previously. Again, this is assuming the hooded man is the only contributor of totheark. Therefore, even by your own logic, totheark's nature has been changing as the story has progressed, and the stance that his nature has been static throughout the entire series is already disproven.

Quote:
TTA, by definition, is the one who sets the TTA agenda


Arbitrarily assigned rule. Totheark, by definition, is a youtube channel, which is implied by both Jay via twitter and totheark itself to have more than one contributor.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:32 am
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Jingleman
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Joined: 29 Aug 2012
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 		I'm not going to quote everything above, but of course, I think it's misinterpreting the situation and making assumptions we shouldn't make.

-"Willing contributor" does not mean totheark; it means someone associated with totheark.
- There is no evidence that Tim was "willing" at any time, rather that he was following direction under the influence of someone else, possibly supernatural influence, but manipulation nonetheless. I don't think that counts as voluntary. That's what 61 and 62 were about. This point and the one above it seem to be the crux of the multiple-TTA's theory, and they're the biggest points with which I disagree.
-"Come back. Find me." was "Signal" which is the strongest evidence for your point, I agree, but it's by no means certain and I gave a reasonable alternative explanation above.
- "We and Us" doesn't necessarily mean that TTA is more than one person, either; in "messages" for example, it meant the viewing audience, as TTA knew the secret he wanted Jay to tell.
-It's entirely reasonable to think that Hoody was pulling the strings in season one, and he may well have been filming Jay in Return, or he might have had Masky do it. That's not evidence either way. I think that Hoody was in or around Brian's house at the time of 18, and Tim was sent first to subdue Jay, as in 62.
Quote:
we have to assume that the current nature of TTA (Hoody, probably himself alone) has always been the nature of TTA

- You got me, I was making an assumption about the "nature" of TTA, after fussing at you for doing the same thing. Let me try this differently. I shouldn't have used the word "nature;" it connotes to many facets of the character. I was trying to express the idea of TTA as one and only one person. Maybe I'll say his "number" hasn't changed. I agree that his tactics have changed and his willingness to reveal himself to Jay has changed. We don't know, of course, if that's really change, because we don't know what his goals are; this might have been the plan all along. In any case, and here's where I restate the fallacious point I made in the last post, the number of TTA's, which I see as one, has never been confirmed, so if we are beginning to learn about TTA in a concrete way now, then it would be an unreasonable leap to assume that it was different in the past unless we are given that information in future entries, since we can interpret the past to fit, even if it looked a little different at the time.
Quote:
TTA, by definition, is the one who sets the TTA agenda

-Lastly, you got me again: I phrased that as a somewhat arbitrary rule. Let me try again. "totheark" is the name of a YouTube channel, and that is the only confirmed use of the name, other than Jay's presumption that the person behind the channel is named "totheark." I have been using TTA as shorthand for "whoever is the enigmatic character behind the YouTube channel." In that sense, I believe that the one we need to worry about is whoever is setting the agenda, that is, the one who knows what's going on and who's running the show. Even if it turned out that TTA was something like a structured group with members, I would still say that the TTA or "the one we should be worried about" is the leader or mastermind of the group. He's the one I care about, not whoever he puts in a fugue state or manipulates or whatever.

Just to be clear, when I used the phrase "faulty logic" above, I did not mean to imply anything but that the conclusions didn't necessarily follow from the premises, in the academic sense. I did not intend to call anyone out as stupid or incapable or any variation thereof. I myself am prone to the occasional fallacy, as we see above, and I am happy that Geneaux486 pointed out some mistakes so that this discussion could progress toward discovery. Also, this topic might be better explored in a different thread.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:58 pm
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pravado
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Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Posts: 1833
Geneaux486 wrote:
Jingleman wrote:
It's faulty logic to say that Tim was in a video, therefore he was a contributor, therefore he was a part of totheark.


Not when you look at all of the facts. Tim appeared in multiple TTA videos, sitting still, facing the camera, which was clearly set on a solid surface because the frame was stable. This means he's contributed to those videos, and therefore contributed, willingly, to the totheark channel. Keep in mind that totheark is, at this point, not the name of a single entity, it's a youtube channel, and if Tim willingly contributes to it, he's a part of it.
Not to mention the fact that totheark has filmed Jay while in Brian's house, a location we have never seen the hooded man in or around, but we know Tim frequented the place. We also know that totheark posted a video calling Jay out for filming himself around the same time Jay's security cam picked up Tim's intrusion, but never did it catch the hooded guy snooping around, therefore it stands to reason that the knowlege of Jay's growing paranoia touched on in that particular totheark vid came directly from Tim himself. Then, of course, there's the fact that one of the totheark videos ends with "Come back. Find me." Followed immediately by Jay going back to Brian's house and finding Tim. Factor in the heavy implications that the hooded man, who's existence is not known until season 2, also contributes heavily to the totheark channel, the fact that totheark, while referring to Tim as "me", has also referred to itself as "we" and "us", and the fact that on at least one occasion the hooded man and Tim have been shown working together, the most likely conclusion is that they are both contributors to the totheark channel.

Quote:
we have to assume that the current nature of TTA (Hoody, probably himself alone) has always been the nature of TTA


We don't have to assume anything of the sort. In fact, that in and of itself is faulty logic. The overall situation has changed so much at this point that it stands to reason totheark's nature has changed as well. In fact, totheark's nature has never been static. If you assume that the hooded man is totheark, and has been totheark this entire time, then you have to acknowlege the fact that his nature has changed. In season 1 he didn't appear at all. In season 2, he was slightly more direct and enlisted Tim's aid, and in season 3 he's extremely direct, not only breaking into Tim's residence but filming himself doing so, exposing himself on a level he hadn't done previously. Again, this is assuming the hooded man is the only contributor of totheark. Therefore, even by your own logic, totheark's nature has been changing as the story has progressed, and the stance that his nature has been static throughout the entire series is already disproven.

Quote:
TTA, by definition, is the one who sets the TTA agenda


Arbitrarily assigned rule. Totheark, by definition, is a youtube channel, which is implied by both Jay via twitter and totheark itself to have more than one contributor.


some of that first paragraph is opinion, not fact

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:15 pm
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Geneaux486
I Have No Life


Joined: 17 Mar 2011
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pravado wrote:
some of that first paragraph is opinion, not fact


A lot of my post is opinion and not fact. But it's got a lot of facts in it to.

Quote:
-"Willing contributor" does not mean totheark; it means someone associated with totheark.


If someone is a willing contributor to the youtube channel and frequently appears in the videos then yes, that means he's part of that channel. The only exception to this would be if there was some known difference between the hooded man's participation in the channel and Tim's, that is to say something setting them apart, and in that instance, burden of proof would be on you.

Quote:
There is no evidence that Tim was "willing" at any time, rather that he was following direction under the influence of someone else, possibly supernatural influence, but manipulation nonetheless.


There's zero evidence that anything he did prior to the hooded man's theft of his pills was the result of manipulation. Again, burden of proof is on you.

Quote:
-"Come back. Find me." was "Signal" which is the strongest evidence for your point, I agree, but it's by no means certain and I gave a reasonable alternative explanation above.


And you would need proof of that reasonable explanation to overshadow what we currently know for a fact, that being "Come back. Find me" results in Jay going back and finding Tim.

Quote:
"We and Us" doesn't necessarily mean that TTA is more than one person, either; in "messages" for example, it meant the viewing audience, as TTA knew the secret he wanted Jay to tell.


Entry #### comes off like a manifesto. I see it as being more likely that "we" and "us" is a reference to the contributors of the totheark channel. Furthermore, Jay's tweet about his suspision that the videos are made by more than one person is not likely to have been included for no reason from a story-telling standpoint.

Quote:
It's entirely reasonable to think that Hoody was pulling the strings in season one, and he may well have been filming Jay in Return, or he might have had Masky do it. That's not evidence either way. I think that Hoody was in or around Brian's house at the time of 18, and Tim was sent first to subdue Jay, as in 62.


Again, we see no traces of the hooded man's existence in season 1. In this case, burden of proof is on you to prove that he was there in order to contradict the assertion that Tim was responsible for his own actions at that point, which, without the hooded man's confirmed intervention, is the likliest of circumstances.

Quote:
after fussing at you for doing the same thing


I wasn't making assumptions, I was stating facts and the likliest implications of them.

Quote:
I was trying to express the idea of TTA as one and only one person.


And as it stands there is a lot of evidence going towards disproving that idea.

Quote:
so if we are beginning to learn about TTA in a concrete way now, then it would be an unreasonable leap to assume that it was different in the past unless we are given that information in future entries, since we can interpret the past to fit, even if it looked a little different at the time.


We can't take this sudden change in totheark's behavior and approach and apply it to the rest of the series up to that point when he/they/it was acting completely different.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:46 pm
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Jingleman
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Joined: 29 Aug 2012
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 		Okay, if you don't take "observation," 61, and 62 as an indication that Tim is being manipulated by Hoody, then we are talking at cross-purposes. That's the evidence as it stands.

As far as "burdens of proof" go, I've met mine, just as you have yours. The idea is to present reasonable theories that are internally consistent and explain the "evidence." There is no proof of any of this, not your theory, not mine, not until we see an entry that explains everything explicitly. Until then, all of us are speculating. All you can do is take the "facts" (I hate that word; people use it way too liberally) and interpret them as best you can.

I'm giving more weight to the most recent entries because I think that (using the same OOG reasoning that you're using when you point out Jay's multiple-TTA tweet) this is the exposition stage of the narrative, and what we're seeing now is beginning to pull back the curtain. That, and interpreting the current Tim/Hoody relationship as applying in the past yields a lot of interesting results, like allowing for Tim to come and go as a TTA asset without compromising TTA's menace, and even allowing for the possibility that Jay or other characters have been used by TTA on occasion. But I've said all this before, and you saying that there is zero evidence that the current revelations about Tim's subjugation and victimization apply to the past is like saying to Copernicus, "Oh, so now you can prove that the Sun isn't revolving around the Earth? Well, there's no proof that it wasn't revolving around the Earth before! We all saw that it was!"

I'm weighing the evidence differently than you are, and I find it to be more compelling, more probative, this way. But don't pretend that I have some obligation to meet an imaginary burden of proof or to show that the weakest parts of my theory must be more compelling than the strongest points of yours. I admit that my theory has some weaknesses, but so does yours, and I find that on the whole I can't accept the interpretation you present. I've answered all of your objections, either here or in the "Who's TTA" thread, and I don't think that we're making any progress here. If you still can't see that my theory is internally consistent and explains all of the evidence one way or another, then that's fine. Going around and around on the twitter thread isn't going to bring us any closer to actually understanding the truth, which is what my goal has been all along.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:41 pm
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ReverendJ
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 		Man it's like you guys are trolling the people who looks for new tweets here first for me! Team work!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:58 pm
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Drnothing1
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Jingleman wrote:
Okay, if you don't take "observation," 61, and 62 as an indication that Tim is being manipulated by Hoody, then we are talking at cross-purposes. That's the evidence as it stands.


Yet again, where's the proof that Tim was always manipulated? Actually, early on, TTA videos were fairly passive while the newer ones are much more aggressive. I believe Hoody and Masky are contributors to the channel in Season 1 and most of season 2 but had a falling out. It would make sense for Hoody to become more aggressive after Masky left because then TTA's existence is crumbling and so Hoody is forced to use coercion to achieve his goal.

My support goes to Geneaux486.
_________________
What if The Operator is really the ghost of movie critics past trying to prevent Alex from ever making his god-awful movie?

PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:01 pm
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paladin181
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Drnothing1 wrote:
Jingleman wrote:
Okay, if you don't take "observation," 61, and 62 as an indication that Tim is being manipulated by Hoody, then we are talking at cross-purposes. That's the evidence as it stands.


Yet again, where's the proof that Tim was always manipulated? Actually, early on, TTA videos were fairly passive while the newer ones are much more aggressive. I believe Hoody and Masky are contributors to the channel in Season 1 and most of season 2 but had a falling out. It would make sense for Hoody to become more aggressive after Masky left because then TTA's existence is crumbling and so Hoody is forced to use coercion to achieve his goal.

My support goes to Geneaux486.
Any person, as they become more desperate or frustrated with the ineptitude of their audience to follow instructions could EASILY change from mellow to aggressive. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Hoody (as the person behind TTA) would be more.. "hands off" at the beginning, dropping subtle hints, etc. Then as Jay's inability to decipher his cryptic hints properly, or failure to execute the proper course of action becomes more prominent, he gets less cryptic, less "behind the scenes" and more directly active in the content of the videos. Jay still doesn't get it, so Hoody's role becomes ever more aggressive as far as actually doing things that TTA thinks Jay should have been doing all along. "I'd ask you to do it, but you're an idiot, so I may as well do it myself." Not standing for either theory, but this is easily the explanation for a change in attitude. It's called character development. Characters don't stay the same throughout a good narrative because that's boring and simple.

ETA: I'm not discussing this any further in this topic, and I'd suggest you guys move it to the who is TTA thread for simplicity sake.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:09 am
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Stanislav
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Quote:
Finally got a call from Tim. Meeting him tonight.


#wednesdaynight

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:42 pm
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amrith777
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Stanislav wrote:
Quote:
Finally got a call from Tim. Meeting him tonight.


#wednesdaynight


HELLS TO THE YEAH! Rock On
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Tharol said:
Quote:
Masky sign language Hello in your base tackling your dudes.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:53 pm
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pravado
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 		more like

#saturdaynight

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:08 pm
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Oscar Langley
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@ALEJANDROESTRA1 Downtown area. Near the antique store I saw him leaving months ago.


PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:15 pm
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Teedub
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 		I'm actually pretty confident that it will be posted tomorrow night.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:23 pm
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