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 Forum index » Chaotic Fiction » Slender Man Mythos
Ending a Slending
Moderators: ChildOfAtom, Cougar Draven, DavFlamerock, Dixie_Wolf, ndemeter
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Tharol
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 4805
Location: Muncie, Indiana

Laugh so many weird ideas kind fun derail think.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:19 pm
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gottagofast
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Joined: 10 Jun 2012
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I think the argument is kind of pointless if the meaning of the word "canon" is explained. I can see what both sides mean, but "inspiration" would've been better and saved a lot of trouble.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:17 pm
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Carnahan
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Joined: 28 May 2010
Posts: 215
Location: NJ

Baronness wrote:
KrisTrauma wrote:
Baronness wrote:
KrisTrauma wrote:
Canon to what? Every slenderseries is canon to itself. Calling MH the original canon is offensive towards other creators.


Uh, calm down. Sure, that could be true, but you can't deny that MH was the first Sseries to come about and definitely inspired the other series that came after it. You can see elements that the creators of MH employed being used in subsequent series, as well.


Why is it that whenever anyone tries to respond to debate, the first thing anyone posts is "calm down"? I am as calm as calm gets. I was just making a point. I do not deny that a lot of series borrowed things from MH, but to call them the original canon disrobes all other series of their own. No series is canon. All series are canon.



Oh, okay, sorry to have offended you, so sorry for saying, "Calm down." I wasn't aware that I hurt you so much by using that phrase! Please forgive me!!!1 Jesus.

The fact is that MH was the first, whether anybody likes it or not. Facts shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or we've got a problem with basic logic, here. And you can OBVIOUSLY (oh, so painfully obviously) see their influence in TribeTwelve, EMH, DarkHarvest, etc. You can't tell me that they didn't start the original characteristics of SM, that they didn't singlehandedly take it from images on the somethingawful forums and make it into something real on video. Canon.

If we go with the logic that "all series are canon unto themselves," that line of thought basically gives everyone who ever wrote the shittiest fan fiction about anything the right to call themselves canon.


It's wonderful to believe that you know and fully understand other's intentions. I am envious of such an ability.

Drink from the Rivers of Avalon with me, friend, and see the Shores.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:17 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

Quote:
The Slenderverse doesn't really have a canon in the sense that it's usually used.


This word is a giant pain in the ass. Most people, including myself, use it to mean "part of the story," especially in a case where you have a lot of installments & adaptations.

...But I've had people jump down my throat before because I guess it's supposed to refer to a body of works--like the canon of Stephen King, or even the canon of Western Literature.

Curiously, none of these people ever seem to want to supply me with a term for "part of the story" other than the one that's pissing them off so damn much.

Quote:
But no one has to respect their authoritah and there's nothing to stop anyone rejecting those elements or introducing others.


I totally agree with this, but for my part, I merely meant that the Tropes of the mythos are really driven by MH, EMH, TT, & Slender, as of a few months ago.

I was not trying to make a claim about the quality of individual stories, I was trying to make a claims about what patterns have been established.

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:53 pm
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KrisTrauma
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Joined: 19 Apr 2011
Posts: 492
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Baronness wrote:
KrisTrauma wrote:
Baronness wrote:
KrisTrauma wrote:
Canon to what? Every slenderseries is canon to itself. Calling MH the original canon is offensive towards other creators.


Uh, calm down. Sure, that could be true, but you can't deny that MH was the first Sseries to come about and definitely inspired the other series that came after it. You can see elements that the creators of MH employed being used in subsequent series, as well.


Why is it that whenever anyone tries to respond to debate, the first thing anyone posts is "calm down"? I am as calm as calm gets. I was just making a point. I do not deny that a lot of series borrowed things from MH, but to call them the original canon disrobes all other series of their own. No series is canon. All series are canon.



Oh, okay, sorry to have offended you, so sorry for saying, "Calm down." I wasn't aware that I hurt you so much by using that phrase! Please forgive me!!!1 Jesus.

The fact is that MH was the first, whether anybody likes it or not. Facts shouldn't be offensive to anyone, or we've got a problem with basic logic, here. And you can OBVIOUSLY (oh, so painfully obviously) see their influence in TribeTwelve, EMH, DarkHarvest, etc. You can't tell me that they didn't start the original characteristics of SM, that they didn't singlehandedly take it from images on the somethingawful forums and make it into something real on video. Canon.

If we go with the logic that "all series are canon unto themselves," that line of thought basically gives everyone who ever wrote the shittiest fan fiction about anything the right to call themselves canon.


Once again you have misunderstood me. I am as calm as can be. You obviously feel attacked by my making good points.

Anyhow, here are a few errors in your point:

1) MH's Slenderman is NOT Slenderman. As the creators have multiple times stated, he is The Operator, only based on Slenderman.

2) You basically said every other series is a fanfiction of Marble Hornets. That statement is an insult towards other series as well as a fallacy. By stating such you agknowledge that Twilight is a fanfiction of Dracula, or that any zombie movie after Dawn of the dead is a fanfiction. Stupid argument is stupid.

Please think next time you decide to shit all over everyone's work. All the creators would gladly appreciate it!

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:01 pm
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Fotzepolitic
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Joined: 16 Sep 2012
Posts: 227
Location: the government blankets

KrisTrauma wrote:

2) You basically said every other series is a fanfiction of Marble Hornets. That statement is an insult towards other series as well as a fallacy. By stating such you agknowledge that Twilight is a fanfiction of Dracula, or that any zombie movie after Dawn of the dead is a fanfiction. Stupid argument is stupid.

Please think next time you decide to shit all over everyone's work. All the creators would gladly appreciate it!


SHORT VERSION:

"Fanfiction" isn't a dirty word, and even if it were, the person you're totally-not-raging at didn't actually use it, and certainly wasn't referring to it in a derogatory way; so you're really just coming off as a bit over-sensitive.

LOOONG VERSION (shrunk for space):

You've basically used the word "basically" in a reductionist fashion to make it look like something less nuanced and more extreme has been said. Or, to put it another way: who said anything about fanfiction? And, for that matter: who said fanfiction was bad?

We're basically just talking about trope originators - stories that come up with an idea that becomes so popular that people adopt it rather than coming up with a new one. There's a vagillion words written about how and why that happens (I should know, I had to read half of them), but generally speaking what is consistently true is that copying, stealing and reappropriating other people have created is as old as (if not older than) storytelling itself.

It's basically how we have a language and are able to communicate at all, because at some point someone decided that Ug's word for "run away from the big scary tiger" was good enough and had the added advantage that everyone (who wasn't dead from tigers) already had a rough idea what it meant. If we were all super-original all the time, we'd probably never have written a story. We'd probably all be dead from tigers, and certainly wouldn't have much free-time.

Sorry if that seems patronising, but the point is...

If people use terms like "fanfiction" in a derogatory way, they're fooling themselves. You say that every zombie movie since Dawn of the Dead (not Night of the Living Dead?) should not be dismissed as fanfiction, and that not every vampire story since Bram Stoker should be dismissed as fanfiction. I say you're right; they shouldn't be dismissed as such. But that doesn't change the fact that that really is what they are.

So the modern vampire genre is almost entirely based on Stoker's novel - he invented the fangs, one of the most iconic vampire images that curiously doesn't really feature in vampire legends before his novel. Similarly, while zombies existed in legend before George A Romero, very few of the way-too-many zombie movies since Dawn of the Dead resemble them in any way (The Serpent and the Rainbow is the only modern zombie movie I can think of that really does). A zombie or a vampire could be anything, but people saw something that worked and decided not to fuck with it, because film is about visual shorthand. Clichés and tropes exist because they convey something to the audience quickly and visually, which means you don't have to explain it later. Does this make those movies worse? You tell me, but I'd say that the Hollywood zombie has so little to do with the Haitian zombi that it doesn't really owe it any debt anymore, and a modern vampire doesn't really owe that much to the old legends. The originators did, maybe, but so what?

Long story short (too late), "fanfiction" isn't a dirty word, and even if it were, it would only be a dirty word for an concept that is ostensibly clean. What you seem to be doing is constructing offense - seeing that someone is referring to the concept to which "fanfiction" applies, naming that concept "fanfiction", and then accusing them of saying bad things about it by using the word "fanfiction" to describe it.

But actually I'm not sure what you're doing. You seem to be defending the honour and creativity of writers who I'm guessing would probably rather you didn't. It's no more terrible to say that Slendervlogs owe a debt to MH than to say that Anne Rice owes a debt to Bram Stoker. It's not like anyone's asking Anne Rice to stop writing (not because of that, anyway), but it shouldn't be the case that you can't mention Bram Stoker in the same sentence without being accused of denigrating her creativity. She did nick elements from Bram Stoker, but so what? The only difference between her and him as that he nicked (mostly) from folklore, whereas she nicked from someone who nicked from folklore. And also that Bram Stoker wrote other stuff about other stuff.

_________________
Probably the first Slendervlog to reference Grindr.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:23 am
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Fotzepolitic
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Joined: 16 Sep 2012
Posts: 227
Location: the government blankets

Lithp wrote:
Quote:
The Slenderverse doesn't really have a canon in the sense that it's usually used.


This word is a giant pain in the ass. Most people, including myself, use it to mean "part of the story," especially in a case where you have a lot of installments & adaptations.

...But I've had people jump down my throat before because I guess it's supposed to refer to a body of works--like the canon of Stephen King, or even the canon of Western Literature.

Curiously, none of these people ever seem to want to supply me with a term for "part of the story" other than the one that's pissing them off so damn much.


Meh, I don't know what to tell you. Canon does mean "a recognised and accepted body of work". With Stephen King it's easy because you look a work and see if it was written by Stephen King and/or ask him if he authorised it.

With "the canon of Western literature" it's a lot fuzzier, as it's basically what smart people agree are "important" works, usually to the point that to call yourself "well-read" you'd have to had read most of them or at least be willing to pretend. It's pretty much broken down over the course of the 20th century though, ironically through the works of very canonical writers like James Joyce, who treated the concept with the disregard that it probably deserved. It still has some value, but these days if we want to decide what a great film is, we either ask one critic, or we set up an Internet poll. I can sort of see why people miss the canon.

As for words for "part of the story", you already said "installment", and we have "mythos" sitting up there for them's that need it. I'd have to have a clearer idea of context to be more specific though.

Lithp wrote:
Quote:
But no one has to respect their authoritah and there's nothing to stop anyone rejecting those elements or introducing others.


I totally agree with this, but for my part, I merely meant that the Tropes of the mythos are really driven by MH, EMH, TT, & Slender, as of a few months ago.

I was not trying to make a claim about the quality of individual stories, I was trying to make a claims about what patterns have been established.


Yeah, to be honest, I think that's what everyone's saying. The Internet is great at making people bicker endlessly about stuff that they actually agree on.
_________________
Probably the first Slendervlog to reference Grindr.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:32 am
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lachesis
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 225

I think kris was just trying to redirect the "OG CANON" focus to the SA thread instead of MH... I could be mistaken.

Also, mods? is there a section for flamewars? honestly a lot of the past 2 pages sounds like people unnecessarily picking apart the wording of comments while ignoring the meaning behind them.

let's get back to fostering a discussion appropriate to the topic on hand.

I agree, it's super frustrating that these series start with excellent momentum and stall out part way from a myopically planned plot. And others who create filler while they write incredibly complicated ways to tie up loose ends are equally as frustrating. I really think the whole waiting part of it is really more due to the fact that as much as I don't want to believe it, these projects are labors of love that are sometimes hard to find time to fit into real lives.

If only all these people could have budgets, or even returns on some dvd profits to help support their endeavors.

More emphasis needs to be put on ending series and not just letting them fade off, but I suspect with the impending end of at least 3 major series, a few precedents (and expectations) will be set that will help smaller series become more ambitious about their own endings.
But still, a word to the wise (and young series) PLAN AN EXIT STRATEGY FROM THE GET-GO, maybe not a whole one, but at least know where your trajectory will approximately land...

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:38 am
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TheFallenenvoy
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011
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_________________
A haiku about unfiction
what the fuck
what are you doing
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:33 am
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Posts: 2058

The subject is really getting away from me, here. To be fair, though, I did ask a question a while back that hasn't been responded to yet.

Quote:
I'd have to have a clearer idea of context to be more specific though.


The example that currently sticks out in my head is the anime "Neon Genesis Evangelion."

There are like a billion versions of this thing. There's a manga series, the original anime series, the "Rebuild of Evangelion" movies, & some other manga spinoffs.

Most are done by the same people, so they would be considered part of the same canon. The only problem is that they all follow different plot lines. Some differ subtly, others completely change the meanings of 90% of the plot devices.

...So you need some way to differentiate which story line you're talking about, & what works, author statements, & other information "count" towards it.

Quote:
Yeah, to be honest, I think that's what everyone's saying. The Internet is great at making people bicker endlessly about stuff that they actually agree on.


No, the internet makes people argue eternally over points that they really accept.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:44 pm
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lachesis
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011
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HEY! YOU KNOW WHAT'S TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC AND BORING TO READ ABOUT?
The semantics of "canon".

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:27 pm
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Fotzepolitic
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Joined: 16 Sep 2012
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Location: the government blankets

Meh, the thread's pretty much over. We've established that Slendervlogs ending properly is the exception rather than the rule, and that if you want to end yours, you should end it pretty much the same way everything ends, only not.
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Probably the first Slendervlog to reference Grindr.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:43 pm
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Cris711B
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Joined: 26 Jun 2012
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Fotzepolitic wrote:
Meh, the thread's pretty much over. We've established that Slendervlogs ending properly is the exception rather than the rule, and that if you want to end yours, you should end it pretty much the same way everything ends, only not.


So you mean something like a test that says "THE END" but then a "?" fades in?

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:20 pm
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Baronness
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Joined: 05 Sep 2012
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I'm not gonna get anymore into it, but I do want to clarify that I never meant to imply that I believe everything but Marble Hornets is just fan fiction. (But I'm also not going to suck up to the creators of any other Slenderproject, regardless of how every touchy teenager on this site feels about their ~*favorite series*~.)

I also never meant to "shit all over" anything, although based on the argument I was having with what's-his-name, it seems that any kind of critique of any work that someone else admires automatically = shitting all over it. So... Whoops?

P.S. KrisT, which work did you create? Let me know so I can be sure to shit allllllllllllll over it.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:33 pm
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Lithp
I Have No Life


Joined: 04 Mar 2012
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lachesis wrote:
HEY! YOU KNOW WHAT'S TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC AND BORING TO READ ABOUT?
The semantics of "canon".


You know what, by bitching about it, in all caps no less, you are only adding to what you perceive to be a problem.

PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:31 pm
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