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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC] What's left? (Endgame ponderings and speculations)
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chaotic_mind
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
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Location: Inside my head, behind the eyes

 		[SPEC] What's left? (Endgame ponderings and speculations)
Hello all,

In light of sudden changes going on, and Melissa+'s return to 2552, I think there are several very interesting questions remaining...
edit- Bah. Sorry, I forgot that this contains spoilers for people just tuning in.

Spoiler (Rollover to View):

List of questions:

* Did the emergence of the Sleeping Princess have anything to do with the artifact?
*Can we trust the flea?
*Can we trust Melissa+?
*Where did Durga come from?
*Why can Melissa manipulate Durga?
*What is Haloverse rampancy?
*What happens to the characters we all know and love during the Covenant invasion?
*How does the code-breaking play into the endgame?


SPOILER SPACE
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And now for the questions:

* Did the emergence of the Sleeping Princess have anything to do with the artifact?

Early on, I felt very sure that the true impetus behind the emergence of the Princess had to be the artifact. You were looking at three independent AIs. The only explanation that seemed to work for me involved the artifact.

it seems obvious now that the Sleeping Princess personality was somehow kept in containment, and was freed by the crash.

I still wonder how much influence the artifact had on the emergence of the Princess.

It's not an unknown concept in sci-fi to have a "magical" or "mysterious" technology allow mental fractures and roles as completely seperate selves.

Ultimately I think the artifact allowed the Princess to be a free-ranging entity. Without the artifact and just the crash, we've would've seen the weepy Melissa. The emotions of the Princess would seep into Melissa's personality, much like it does with Durga, but it was only the artifact that let Melissa and the Princess be two seperate, yet intimately connected entities.

*Can we trust the flea?

My response is still no...within reason.

I still can't shake how adaptable the Flea is, how much vehemence the Princess expressed for it early on. While I don't necessarily think the Flea is entirely beyond redemption, I don't think he/it has the intelligence to even attempt to grasp for redeption.

It cannot even read or write it's name. (And yes, I know that the Flea has obviously done this literally. The Princess wrote that never her more incoherent times as she tried to evade the SPDR. Like a dream, it's the details that matter less than the tone.)

I think we can manipulate it. But I still think we need to be wary of it. It quickly adapted itself to the SPDR when that thing went to kill it. After nmerous failures at accomplishing !attach Princess, it changed it's strategy.

It began to try to manipulate and befriend the Princess as much as she was manipulating it.

I think our risk of using it needs to be tempered by the caution that it's learning about us as we use it.

So, do I think we can trust it? No.

*Can we trust Melissa+?

This, on the other hand, is a much more unclear answer. Melissa+ is a new factor, but we really have no reason NOT to trust her. We trusted Melissa and the Princess, why can't we trust her as one?

I still am suspicious of Melissa+'s birth by Flea. We shall need to see how much influence the Flea has over Melissa+.

I think Melissa+ may have as many moral difficulties presented to her new humanity as much as we did. Do we turn in the Princess? Do we trust Melissa? Do we help Dana kill the Princess?

*Where did Durga come from?

It's the classic questions of clones, who came first?

Was it Durga or what I now call Melissa+. Who's the original?

No idea. It'll probably be revealed as the Officer's Club Band get's closer to the artifact.

*Why can Melissa manipulate Durga?

Once again, very related to the question above. What is the nature of their connection. It's sustained by the artifact, but how strong is the connection? How much control does the possibly Flea tainted Melissa+ have over Durga, and how does that relate to the ultimate break-in at Chawla.

*What is Haloverse rampancy?

The version of rampancy Durga presented is very different from the previous Haloverse versions. If it came to a cannonical discussion, then Durga's rampancy probably wouldn't pass muster.

But Durga's rampancy is so much more compelling from a story standpoint. So let's reconcille the two versions.

I think a particularly illuminating metaphor for this situation is a plant. An AI is like a plant. We know that there is regulatory code surround, underlying and suffusing the AI. The SPDR, Cortana's ethics routines. I think this programming matrix that both sustains and constrains the AI is likenable to a pot, that a plant lies in.

Most AIs are firmly stuck in their pots. They can be moved from system to system, but they still are surround by their regulatory code matrix. The fruits of their minds can grow as much as possible. Just like a potted plant, there's no constraints on upward growth (at least in the terms of the metaphor).

But the code matrix surrounding the AI prevents the "root system" of the AI from spreading too far. The AI gets too smart, the roots begin to infere with one another, the plant dies.

Not so in Melissa and Durga's case, because that martix has been broken. Though I would hypothesize that part of the function of the SPDR is to reconstruct that program matrix, I also think the personality matrix grows it own roots into a system.

I still remember the first things Durga and Jersey talked about. "Wet the system" "You're everywhere." This seems like Durga grew some roots into Jersey's system. And though it "felt small", Durga could still connect to the wider network of 2552.

Melissa, likewise, has the internet of 2004 to stick her roots into, but our internet may prove a rockier and less sustaining soil then what Durga gets.

That's my view on rampancy in the Haloverse. Take it or leave it.

*What happens to the characters we all know and love during the Covenant invasion?

It's widely been stated that the game will end on or before November 9th.

But it can't. At least I don't want it to.

Consider that the Ilovebees game can't really tell us who survives the Covenant invasion without some spoilage of the game. They can't really talk about the invasion without starting to intrude on the territory that remains firmly in Halo 2 not Ilovebees.

Thus, the only real options are
1) Leave the characters hanging

or

2) One last update, somehow, somewhere, in mid-to-late November or December.

I know there's really no evidence for it beyond hope, and the characters may have their stories conclude this Sunday one way or another.

But I really will be waiting for an e-mail from the future after Halo 2 comes out.

Hear that PMs, snorlison(at)yahoo(dot)com. I'll be waiting. Wink

Finally,

*How does the code-breaking play into the endgame?

I think the prevalent use by the PMs of moral ambiguity, the World War II example, and the choices we've been forced to make indicated that there's one last moral dilemna. One last little moral knot to untangle.

Will this be in our court? I don't know. I think it'll be firmly for Melissa+ to decide. Her new-found humanity would make such a dilemna for her all the more interesting.

Not to mention that Melissa+ is made up of two entities that've been messed with and otherwise screwed by the players.

We got the Princess knowingly consigned to the perdition of her coffin.
We sympathized with Melissa's attempted murderer.

It'll be interesting to see what Melissa+ thinks of us.

That wraps it up for as much as I can see. I hope this gets some people thinking and commenting.

Luke P.

edit - To fix a potential spoilage issue.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:30 pm
Last edited by chaotic_mind on Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:44 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Astald
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 		How about:
Why the ilovebees.com website?
There has been alot of speculation on this but no clear answer.
Well, that's it for right now I guess. I will come back to this thread after I get more caught-up on what happened today.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:41 pm
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chaotic_mind
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 		Sorry, Astald, in case I did spoil you. You didn't mention that I did, but I realize now that it could've been very easy to do so.

I tried to fix the problem, without having to put the whole post in spoilers tags. Don't know if it worked.

Anyway, sorry if I did spoil you, or anyone else.

Now on with the speculating. Let's get this market a-crashin'!

In addition to *Why Ilovebees? I think we should also add *Why Jersey Morelli?

Luke P.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 6:47 pm
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Blah
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Quote:
In addition to *Why Ilovebees? I think we should also add *Why Jersey Morelli?


That's also what I'm curious about right now. The other big question not yet answered is "What is the truth?"
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:07 pm
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TheBiggestSean
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 		I think, considering the Herzog wavs...

Not trusting the Flea is ridiculous, stubborn, and foolish. It's like saying "well, I might have been wrong to hate the Flea so much... but I still hate him."

It's admitting that you're unwilling, despite fairly clear evidnce to the contrary to accept the fact that the Flea was an important and necessary part of the reassembly of Melissa.

I really don't mean to be insulting (despite the fact that I am a bit incensed at the implication that the Flea still remains a potential threat or vector for "evil"), but myself and many others have gone on way too many Flea-defending tirades to be COMPLETELY wrong about this.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:13 pm
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vector
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TheBiggestSean wrote:
I think, considering the Herzog wavs...

Not trusting the Flea is ridiculous, stubborn, and foolish. It's like saying "well, I might have been wrong to hate the Flea so much... but I still hate him."

It's admitting that you're unwilling, despite fairly clear evidnce to the contrary to accept the fact that the Flea was an important and necessary part of the reassembly of Melissa.

I really don't mean to be insulting (despite the fact that I am a bit incensed at the implication that the Flea still remains a potential threat or vector for "evil"), but myself and many others have gone on way too many Flea-defending tirades to be COMPLETELY wrong about this.


I compleatly and whole heartedly agree with you. I have been trying to convince people of this for about a month now. I had given up. Even after he helped free SP, people did not trust him. Even friends of SP. Its nice to finaly be able to say.

Princess friends>>seeker friends
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:19 pm
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Tar Ecthelion
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TheBiggestSean wrote:
...but myself and many others have gone on way too many Flea-defending tirades to be COMPLETELY wrong about this.


'Cus once you start killing folk, you better be right. Laughing

Just say'n,
-Tar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:27 pm
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chaotic_mind
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 		Hey, don't worry. I understand where your coming from.

I do want to trust him. I do want to think he's a good guy.

But, I'm too paranoid for that sort of thing.

He's still not my friend. I still don't trust him. But, considering what he's done, I think he deserves a chance. After all, barring Melissa+ being entirely way to psycho and/or powerful for her own good, he's rendered a great service to what was once Melissa and the Princess.

Do I trust him? No. do I counsel that we ignore him, stop talking to him? No.

He's proven himself as a valuable character, even if my jaded heart isn't quite ready yet to get over what he did in the past.

While what he did to Melissa was probably needed in the long run (both in terms of furthering the story and getting Melissa and the Princess together), it still seems a little dodgy. More of that moral ambiguity.

I think he's already been a vector for a little evil, but then all the characters have.

So, no need to tirade here. I think the Flea has proven himself to be a valuable asset.

I'll just be watching the little bug very closely.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 7:31 pm
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nobodyman
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Astald wrote:
How about:
Why the ilovebees.com website?
There has been alot of speculation on this but no clear answer.
Well, that's it for right now I guess. I will come back to this thread after I get more caught-up on what happened today.

I've been very keen to get the answer to this one as well. All we get are hints and vague references. Though I think the biggest hint came today with the Halsey story:
Quote:
Halsey picks up a needle. Tests the plunger. Something yellow sprays out. Venom colored. Don't worry, she says. The queenly smile. This will hardly hurt a bit.


My guess is that this is Yasmine's last memory before her botched surgery and "waking up" as an A.I.. So, perhaps all the bee references spawn from that final sting; the needle with the venom colored liquid? Who knows. Still, it be nice to have it fleshed out a bit more.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:19 pm
Last edited by nobodyman on Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Astald
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 		nobodyman
Sleeping Princess wrote:
Question: How are the bees?

Answers:

amazing things amazing things amazing things

bees in amber spiders and bees

I am a victim I have to admit that I have an irrational fear of the little buggers; I had a bad experience as a child. being stung

I don't know what I am.

I was wondering

love

That may be what this memory is, so you may be partly right. But why choose the site ilovebees? By the way, that is from the fifth image in killer.jpg

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:54 pm
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AlexofMaceidon
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 		the word queenly is sure used a lot isn't it?

I wonder if that's important?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:03 pm
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Sunyavadin
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 		From the ebginning I kept urging people not to trust the flea.
That he was an unknown, that he had his own agenda.

And yet...

After today I can say without a doubt that I trust him almost completely.

Funny how things change...

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:26 pm
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Darketnal
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 		You know though, according to OperatorMellissa, she believe she was infected by a covie virus before the ship went down.

It's obviously not the princess. In light of recent events, and especially given Herzog's interesting vocabulary, the flea seems like an extremely unlikely suspect. Virus or not, I'd bet my eyeball that's a human program.

Maybe someone who Melissa knows should ask her about that?

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:03 pm
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chaotic_mind
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 		You may be right. The Herzog connection is much too strong to ignore. Still, I think the description of what was happening to Melissa that she speculated was being done by a Covenant virus was actually the Flea working it's magic on her.

Still, I'm pretty sure that it really only makes sense for the Flea to be the one doing the mind-thievery.

Well, I've e-mailed Melissa recently, through danatwingSPLATgmail.com. Here's hoping she'll respond.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:12 pm
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thebruce
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 		well going back to the Why Jersey Morelli? question, I'm pretty sure it's been spec'd before, but I believe Jersey may be Herzog's son. We already figured that the Castaway was Jersey's dad, and recently we figured that the Castaway is Herzog... therefore, the connection is made - Melissa socialized with Herzog when he was on the apocalypso as the castaway, so she's got a connection to his son...

I think we've somehow skipped over that point in all the week's happenings Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 10:39 pm
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