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 Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion
when you hurt the ones you love...
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

 		when you hurt the ones you love...
i was reminded today of a feeling that i've felt three or four times since the endgame of LockJaw, brought on by a picture from a website...

the feeling was this: it's all well and good to criticize the genre we (well, some of us) love to be a part of, but to do so in a very deliberate and, well, cruel manner? is that what some people are in this for?

long story short: i remember the days of Beast and LJ, and the awe and excitement that these games inspired in some. remember the first time you got a chance to play with sweet Eliza? or the fury of messages streaming in to #jb during a euchre session?

perhaps i'm a little jaded (no pun intended), but it seemed as though the citizens of the ARG nation were a kinder, gentler folk before this summer... sure, there were disagreements, and sure there were bad thoughts directed at the PM's of these extraordinary games (the words where.gif still send a shiver down the spines of many). but i don't remember a time when players would call each other childish names in a downtime, or when a group would sling mud (or perpetuate the slinging of said mud) into the eyes of a PM group.

i think the human-ness (word?) of these group dynamics is being fazed out, and materializing in the void is a kind of bitterness, a genuine dislike or contempt for an honest effort or an interesting idea. call me crazy for saying it, but is the honeymoon over in the Alternate Reality Gaming (or immersive gaming, if you want to split hairs) world?

citing a specific example: when it comes down to it, while "Save Push" petitions circulate and people wonder about the possibilities of future projects like Push, do individuals (or groups) feel that they have to fill a need by constantly trying to knock Push and its creators down a peg? i certainly don't care for the show or its style of presentation, but i'm not revelling in the fact that its demise seems eminent. but maybe that's just me.

i learned all about constructive criticism in school, and i learned all about the value of human decency as a child. hopefully, when the "next" big thing comes through these parts, i can find a group of people who learned all about those things too.

my three cents.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:39 pm
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

 		your "human-ness" word would be "humanity".

And I was beginning to wonder about some mean-spiritedness I've encountered in a particular chat room. Maybe it is frayed nerves, maybe just a few straws beyond breaking that camel's back, but I felt uncomfortable watching some people being as vicious as they were towards a few others in the room. Beyond that, I didn't much care for the imagery of pushing Ben Affleck off a cliff and taunting him. There should be pride in beating a game, but not to the point of gloating over the wounded body of the game's creator.

Dunno, maybe it's just me being new to the genre.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 12:51 am
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Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

 		Re: when you hurt the ones you love...
James,
Your comments bring up good points, and I'd like to respond to them

jamesi wrote:

the feeling was this: it's all well and good to criticize the genre we (well, some of us) love to be a part of, but to do so in a very deliberate and, well, cruel manner? is that what some people are in this for?


I don't think this is a matter of "being cruel" at all, I think it's an expression of a bit of competitive spirit, very much like at a football game, or another similar sporting event with our rivals. It's not that we dislike Ben Affleck, we don't, we admire his valiant attempt (and now, failed) attempt at making good television, but we also enjoy the idea of beating his game and taking his money. The group at CD.org is entitled Shove, and that's exactly what Puzzy is doing, Shove-ing Ben Affleck.

jamesi wrote:

long story short: i remember the days of Beast and LJ, and the awe and excitement that these games inspired in some. remember the first time you got a chance to play with sweet Eliza? or the fury of messages streaming in to #jb during a euchre session?

perhaps i'm a little jaded (no pun intended), but it seemed as though the citizens of the ARG nation were a kinder, gentler folk before this summer... sure, there were disagreements, and sure there were bad thoughts directed at the PM's of these extraordinary games (the words where.gif still send a shiver down the spines of many). but i don't remember a time when players would call each other childish names in a downtime, or when a group would sling mud (or perpetuate the slinging of said mud) into the eyes of a PM group.


I also remember a time (during the cridus/exotic puzzle of the Beast) where the PMs purposely red herring'd us. We got more than a little bit angry and there were several that wouldn't have minded some action. So, it goes both way. I wear the same rose-colored glasses, in that we've had a great time, despite setbacks, etc. This isn't about us being angry, vengeful, pissed off. We're just a bit flippant.

jamesi wrote:

i think the human-ness (word?) of these group dynamics is being fazed out, and materializing in the void is a kind of bitterness, a genuine dislike or contempt for an honest effort or an interesting idea. call me crazy for saying it, but is the honeymoon over in the Alternate Reality Gaming (or immersive gaming, if you want to split hairs) world?


Frustration is just as human as joy or as kindness. This isn't dislike, this isn't contempt, this is a bit of plea for a better game. That is all. We got spoiled on the Beast, I realize, but that's no excuse for creators to come out with efforts that are less detailed, formulated for the masses and weak in their general attempts at fooling or puzzling us.

I think the graphic at CD should be taken with a grain of salt. We could all use a little humor these days.

Cortana
Assistant Director, Shove Campaign
www.collectivedetective.org

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:45 am
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catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

 		Ironically, the caption, "Next," was my suggestion. :-( Before word leaks out that i am a two-faced hypocrit, lemme say in my defense that i had not seen the picture itself until now. I was in the chat when the subjects of slogans came up. The word came to mind as they described the concept of conquering their cases, and so I shared it.

Now that I see the image, it is more comical than I was led to believe it would be, based solely on the description. (Good characture artwork, I must say.) Still the underlying sentiment is more confrontational than it needs to be. I like what was said about about there being an unspoken collaboration between PMs and players. That does sound more fun.

I guess it depends on whether you root for the coyote to kill the roadrunner or kill himself in the process, versus feeling sorry for him.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 10:48 am
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Adrian
Boot

Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Oxford/London, UK

 		Whuh?
Could anyone please expand on this subject a bit more, for those who don't frequent the chatrooms that often or watch Push?

I have to admit that I'm surprised by the attitude people have mentioned here - when I heard that Push was definitely cancelled, I thought that the players would be very disappointed. I know I was disappointed, even though I didn't play the game. It's never a happy moment when an ARG is cut down before it's run its course, and while the TV show may have deserved axeing, the game was not produced by the same people. The cancellation of Push harms the entire genre as a whole, and makes it that much more difficult for people to get funding to create more ARGs.

What games are out there now? I consider myself to be fairly well informed in these matters, and I can't name a single game that I would unhesitatingly recommend to others. Let's face it, the genre needs more games and the cancellation of one - even if it was bad (again, I don't know whether Push was) - is not helpful.
_________________
Chief Creative at Six to Start
Founder of Let's Change the Game

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:00 pm
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Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA

 		Re: Whuh?
Adrian wrote:
Could anyone please expand on this subject a bit more, for those who don't frequent the chatrooms that often or watch Push?

I have to admit that I'm surprised by the attitude people have mentioned here - when I heard that Push was definitely cancelled, I thought that the players would be very disappointed. I know I was disappointed, even though I didn't play the game. It's never a happy moment when an ARG is cut down before it's run its course, and while the TV show may have deserved axeing, the game was not produced by the same people. The cancellation of Push harms the entire genre as a whole, and makes it that much more difficult for people to get funding to create more ARGs.


On the whole, yes, we are rather disappointed that Push has been cancelled. However, we believe the producers are going to try to cram the rest of the clues into the remaining three episodes to bring the game to an albeit shortened natural end. We will continue to play over at CD until the game is closed, however, and we're not giving up as easy as ABC seems to be.

Adrian wrote:

What games are out there now? I consider myself to be fairly well informed in these matters, and I can't name a single game that I would unhesitatingly recommend to others. Let's face it, the genre needs more games and the cancellation of one - even if it was bad (again, I don't know whether Push was) - is not helpful.


Well, there is Second State. FrankenPaula has put together an impressive guide here: www.sobiak.com and it's worth a read to decide if you want to get involved. The PMs tried to host an "in character" chat in recent history...but I found it distracting at best. One warning however: It's a pay for play effort. Some folks choose to eschew commercial things.

Cortana.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:32 pm
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kxmom11x
Charter Member


Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 86
Location: 40th & Plumb

 		I believe it would be easier for me to find the humor in the graphic, had the show/game run it's full course. Twisted Evil

However, given it's early demise, I am saddened at what appears to be a slap in the face to a group of people who clearly worked hard to create something new and enjoyable. It's true Push has not lived up to the standards of many of the "regulars" or "old timers" here, but it was an attempt. I'm glad that Push survived even a short time, for without it, I would still be struggling to explain to friends and family what my new obsession is all about. Push has given these people a *taste* of the fun, without overwhelming them.

So yes, Push bombed and perhaps we could all use a little humor these days... it just seems to me that humor would be more appropriate under happier circumstances.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:36 pm
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Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA
kxmom11x wrote:
I believe it would be easier for me to find the humor in the graphic, had the show/game run it's full course. :twisted:

However, given it's early demise, I am saddened at what appears to be a slap in the face to a group of people who clearly worked hard to create something new and enjoyable. It's true Push has not lived up to the standards of many of the "regulars" or "old timers" here, but it was an attempt. I'm glad that Push survived even a short time, for without it, I would still be struggling to explain to friends and family what my new obsession is all about. Push has given these people a *taste* of the fun, without overwhelming them.

So yes, Push bombed and perhaps we could all use a little humor these days... it just seems to me that humor would be more appropriate under happier circumstances.


Some history might be useful here. This graphic was originally commissioned back when Push was still in its first week, it just took that long to get it back from the artist. The addition of a caption was done in recent history, although before the announcement of the cancellation of the show. I encourage you to trust that our motives were not snarky, instead genuine. Very much a "take the fight to the enemy" gesture that says we can handle a difficult puzzle.

Cortana.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 1:40 pm
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kxmom11x
Charter Member


Joined: 24 Sep 2002
Posts: 86
Location: 40th & Plumb

 		Thank you Cort Smile

Somehow I thought this might be a case of unfortunate timing.

......too bad there wasn't room for the mattress at the bottom of the cliff Wink

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:31 pm
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Cortana
Decorated


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 200
Location: Arlington, VA
kxmom11x wrote:
Thank you Cort :)

Somehow I thought this might be a case of unfortunate timing.

......too bad there wasn't room for the mattress at the bottom of the cliff :wink:


Plus, it's a cartoon....cartoons can't die! :lol:

PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:35 pm
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