View topic - Why a curtain?

unforum
a.r.g.b.b

Welcome!

New users, PLEASE read these forum guidelines. New posters, SEARCH before posting and read these rules before posting your killer new campaign. New players may also wish to peruse the ARG Player Tutorial.

All users must abide by the Terms of Service.

Website Restoration Project

This archiving project is a collaboration between Unfiction and Sean Stacey (SpaceBass), Brian Enigma (BrianEnigma), and Laura E. Hall (lehall) with
the Center for Immersive Arts.

Announcements

This is a static snapshot of the
Unfiction forums, as of
July 23, 2017.

This site is intended as an archive to chronicle the history of Alternate Reality Games.

Our Esteemed Contributors

The time now is Mon Nov 25, 2024 6:51 am
All times are UTC - 4 (DST in action)

View posts in this forum since last visit
View unanswered posts in this forum

Calendar

Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion

Why a curtain?
Moderators: imbri, ndemeter

Page 3 of 4 [49 Posts]

Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Author

Message

Varin
I Have No Life

Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

FLmutant wrote:

(people in WV warned about bears thought for sure that meant I had hired some trained bears or something, rather that straight out being an OOG warning about bears and food handling during the camping.)

I can't speak for the others, but I thought that the bear warnings from Dee and JD were quite real. Of course, I had read such warnings before I left for my trip. The predication that the tents would be shredded and Dee and JD would end up missing was more of a prediction that the PMs would use the real world resources available to them. Of course, we dismissed the idea later on when we realized that Dee and JD wouldn't be able to simply disappear as the train we were taking was the last one of the season.

or, ummm, what imbri said...

imbri wrote:

They didn't fail to understand the real danger, but they also thought we might take advantage of that danger and work it into our storyline.

Now all of that being said, if I would have seen the African lion that was reportedly in the area that weekend I would definitely wonder if it was a trained lion (after running into the cabin and locking the door behind me).

_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:52 am

FLmutant
Decorated

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 244
Location: Orlando, FL

Varin wrote:

Sorry I lost that lion. We looked for it everywhere and it was a pain in the ass to rewrite the ending without the lion to provide the motivation for the scream.

On a more serious note, this perception of the curtain sometimes creeps into the news articles. Interesting this bit:

The Escapist wrote:

It's true ARGs have been in the media for longer than you'd suspect, but the curtain between player and "puppetmaster" seems less important than ever. Studios and individuals are not as reluctant as before to claim credit for their work while it's still in progress, something the media has picked up on swiftly. While ARGs used to rely on word of mouth and cryptic hints to build hype, "pre-game" announcements are now considered commonplace in 2007 and expected to continue.

Of course, in reality even the old ARGs relied primarily upon media to spread awareness, not word of mouth, but there are two specifics there. Are pre-game announcements part of the destruction of the curtain that people are concerned about in this thread? Is claiming credit while the ARG is happening part of the destruction of the curtain that people are concerned about in this thread?

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:52 pm

catherwood-offline
Guest

FLmutant wrote:

Are pre-game announcements part of the destruction of the curtain that people are concerned about in this thread? Is claiming credit while the ARG is happening part of the destruction of the curtain that people are concerned about in this thread?

Back in my purist days, I avoided playing Chasing The Wish specifically because it had a pre-game sign-up. Having the announcement right up front that "this will be a game, come participate in our fiction" really blew the atmosphere of what I thought I wanted my ARG experience to be back then. I've mellowed since then.

As for finding out the "who", i didn't think this thread was about just having knowledge about the people behind the curtain. Making it two-way permiable is the issue, as I see it.

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:19 pm

rose
...and then Magic happens

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Quote:

If the PMs come out while something's live and give interviews, talk about the experience, etc., they're in fact invading player space in doing so. At least to a much greater extent than concerns other single media products.

I don't know if I would compare ARGs or AREs or CF to other media because the comparison breaks down. I think the players are very good at looking at what is a META context - say an interview with someone from 1-18-08 that talks about the online aspects of their promotion or an interview with Trent Reznor where he talks about the Year Zero experience as a whole - and what is in-game or in-experience context. Some interviews, if I remember correctly, even have clues in them (I was thinking of EDOC but I could be incorrect about that.)

But, anyway, my point about 1-18-08 is that I would have loved to have a way to communicate with the PMs (who I now know from an article seem to be the online Paramount marketing executives) without it having to be a huge public interview, or public discussion about the game.

The internet allows communication both ways. Why should the only way the players be able to talk to the PMs be in-game? In 1-18-08, there isn't any indication at any point that the PMs are listening to what the players are saying (other than some banal happy talk quotes.) That promotion isn't designed for other than superficial recognition that there may be living, breathing, intelligent, people who are trying to follow it.

My point was that while posting in the META thread of unfiction at least gives me a place to vent, I don't feel it is nearly as effective as being able to address the PMs directly. Although they might not want to be overwhelmed by emails begging for clues, whatever, I think a curtain preventing the players from contacting the PMs isn't always useful.

Maybe this is a more useful example: If I have a question, comment or objection to a television show, I can usually find where to contact the network, the producer and the advertisers, if there are any. I can communicate with them directly about the product they are delivering to the public. What they do with that information is up to them, but at least I know where to start. I'm sure that television shows have people watching the message boards and online chatter about those shows, but I know that they also have other, more direct means to contact the creators and distributors of the show.

I know that the Sci Fi board is watched by the creators of Battlestar Gallactica, I think that even Ron Moore's wife used to post there ( this info is via the podcast he makes after each show.) But I also know that if I wanted to contact the Sci Fi channel directly, through email, phone call, letters, etc. I could do that. In 1-18-08, how would I know who to contact? Sending an email or letter to the general mailbox of Paramount , Bad Robot or trying to find contact info for JJ Abrams, who has said publicly that he isn't working on that promotion, doesn't seem likely to be effective.

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:23 am
Last edited by rose on Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

Shutaro
Decorated

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Northren California

rose wrote:

In 1-18-08, there isn't any indication at any point that the PMs are listening to what the players are saying (other than some banal happy talk quotes.) That promotion isn't designed for other than superficial recognition that there may be living, breathing, intelligent, people who are trying to follow it.

This also assumes that the PMs care. Maybe this is the cynic in me, but I never got the feeling that the whole 1-18-08 thing was anything more than something somebody threw together to generate buzz... That very little thought was given to the experience of the players. It did make for some entertaining threads, however, from a purely meta standpoint.

Getting back to the topic at hand... I like to think of the curtain as a shower curtain, one of those shiny PVC dealies with a multitude of colored fish on it. Functional, decorative, and sometimes you can see things through it. It keeps the water where it's supposed to be and really ties the room together (it goes with all those towels; you know, the ones you're not supposed to use)... And sooner or later you have to pull it back (if you ever want to get out of the shower, that is).

_________________

Playing: Nothing
Watching: Eldrich Errors, Tom Tooman
"Call immdeiately. Time is running out. We both need to do something monstrous before we die."

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:40 am

rose
...and then Magic happens

Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

Quote:

I totally agree this is a reasonable take on their attitude. But even if they don't care, I would have liked to have a more effective way to discuss what I thought about this promotion with them.

Actually, I'm not sure if it is fair to say they don't care as much as they are clueless. SpaceBass pointed out that it seemed like they were trying to do some META communication, but just didn't know how. I think that is discussed on the most recent ARGnet podcast, though I confess I haven't listened to it... I guess we will never get the true answer to that one.

Mostly, I am using 1-18-08 as an example of why it could benefit the players to know where to contact the PMs and, hopefully, the PMs and the experience would benefit from that communication. I'm wondering why the players can (in some cases) only use in-game or meta means like this forum to communicate their thoughts and feelings to the PMs.

_________________
I love this site for being free, in every sense of the word~Spacebass

Mankind was my business, the common good was my business.~ Dickens

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am

Shutaro
Decorated

Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Northren California

rose wrote:

I totally agree this is a reasonable take on their attitude. But even if they don't care, I would have liked to have a more effective way to discuss what I thought about this promotion with them.

True, it's hard to tell the difference in this case (it's also possible they greatly under-estimated the size of their audience), and I haven't been following the game as closely as some (I mostly just stroll through that forum when I'm bored or I want to see if Cthulhu has posted anything new). I think that a little communication of some sort could have gone a long way toward alleviating some of the frustration I'm sensing on that particular forum (this is why I like those translucent shower curtains).

_________________

Playing: Nothing
Watching: Eldrich Errors, Tom Tooman
"Call immdeiately. Time is running out. We both need to do something monstrous before we die."

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:33 pm

MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?

Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Digging this back up for a moment

I'm going to resurrect this topic to chime in here...

Why the Curtain?
If you are reading a novel, do you write to the Author while you are reading a book to ask about why he used things the way he did in a certain paragraph on the first page?

If you are watching a movie for the first time, do you want to hear the Director's commentary about what was going on at the time they shot the scene?

Why not? Because they Experience is separate from the creator of the Experience. Once you involve the creator directly it is no longer the same experience. Call it the TINAG factor, call it enjoying the moment unencumbered by what your expectations are based on the storyteller.

In most games, once the final scene has played out, the people behind the curtain make their presence felt, and then you can ask questions or make comments... Trust me, PMs do read the forums for our own games, even if we can't post in our own games; it's a way to gage what is working and what is not, and if puzzles have flaws that we didn't catch before they were released. But we also want the players to focus on the Characters/Puzzles/Information, and not who is pulling the strings to the puppets.

Orbital Colony had a semi-solid curtain, as it started out as a way for people to learn about how to run a game... Even so players respected the curtain and mainly left us alone while the game was running, except for a few offers to manage some of the back end details (website security). We learned a heck of a lot on that game, what worked, what didn't, what we would do differently, what we had the most fun with, and most importantly, the time input at various stages.
*edited because my fingers like to make typos*

_________________
Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:33 am

catherwood
I Have 100 Cats and Smell of Wee

Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 4109
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

Digging this back up for a moment

MageSteff wrote:

If you are reading a novel, do you write to the Author while you are reading a book to ask about why he used things the way he did in a certain paragraph on the first page?

Maybe, in a rare case. I can imagine there being a hypothetical book which is so controversial that readers drop what they are doing to contact the author. The question for this thread is whether or not the author responds, and if so, thru what channel.

MageSteff wrote:

If you are watching a movie for the first time, do you want to hear the Director's commentary about what was going on at the time they shot the scene?

Maybe, in a rare case. Most movies are passive storytelling, but experimental film might involve audience interaction with the DVD or theater. The question for this thread might be what happens when the DVD has a scene which is all black, whether you ask the manufacturer or the characters to explain or confirm, or just trust that it is supposed to be that way and let it continue to play.

MageSteff wrote:

Because they Experience is separate from the creator of the Experience. Once you involve the creator directly it is no longer the same experience. Call it the TINAG factor, call it enjoying the moment unencumbered by what your expectations are based on the storyteller.

Every case is different. I've been told earlier in this thread that an ARG is not a fixed entity, but a collaboration between storyteller and audience.

MageSteff wrote:

In most games, once the final scene has played out, the people behind the curtain make their presence felt, and then you can ask questions or make comments...

Even in movies and books, the actors and writers have already made their presence known, and in some cases are the reason the audience gathers in the first place. A good actor plus a good writer can make the character real enough that you forget who is behind it; movie reviewers often point out when, "I just couldn't stop seeing Tom Cruise himself on the screen" when that fails. In an ARG, I prefer hearing the voice of the character speak to me, even when I might have in the back of my mind, "I love the way Jim writes this guy." That is certainly easier when I have no idea who the authors are -- which is why I do prefer not knowing at all until the game ends. That illusion of voice is also why I think characters shouldn't be used to pass along meta information.

MageSteff wrote:

Trust me, PMs do read the forums for our own games, even if we can't post in our own games; it's a way to gage what is working and what is not, and if puzzles have flaws that we didn't catch before they were released.

Understood, I don't think anyone ever said that PMs were not listening. I know PMs are reading this right now and cannot respond, because of curtain issues. Players have to trust that they are being heard.

MageSteff wrote:

But we also want the players to focus on the Characters/Puzzles/Information, and not who is pulling the strings to the puppets.

I totally agree. When I engage with a character, I don't want there to be any meta-dialog going on. That doesn't mean meta-dialog isn't happening or necessary.

For example, how should a game respond to players' feedback, how quickly and how often? If players feel ignored, is that simply a matter of perception and expectations, or a communication flaw? How do the viewers know when a scene is supposed to be black?

The question is about those rare times when players and PMs ~~want~~ need to speak directly. How is that best accomplished? Respond thru the voice of a character? By shutting down the game, even temporarily? By setting up a meta site or forum? None of those options appeal to me entirely. And there probably is not one single answer, just as there is no one best definition of The Curtain. Different games have different needs, whether for anonymity or immersion.

The Curtain isn't just about hiding the identies of the PMs or pretending that this is all real. I think The Curtain protects the characters, not the players. How about this analogy: a ventriloquist doesn't hide the fact that he has his hand up the back of his dummy, but he is careful to distinguish his own voice from that of his puppet. He can speak directly to the audience before taking the dummy out of its case, or even cover the ears of the dummy and speak behind its back, but then the dummy should never acknowledge what was said. And the ventriloquist's voice should never come out of the mouth of the dummy. But at the same time, the ventriloquist doesn't treat the dummy as just a prop while on stage; the illusion is maintained that the dummy is a living being during the act (unless it's one of those avante garde postmodern acts). If a problem arises during the show, the dummy is usually returned to its suitcase for a time, and the audience is made aware of the problem.

Aren't analogies fun?

(returning later to quickly add)
Taking the analogy further, there are only rare times when the ventriloquist (shortened to V. hereon) needs to directly address the audience in a meta manner about the show itself. The rest of the time, staying in character is preferable. If the audience is just not enjoying the jokes, the V. should improvise some new dialog. If the audience cannot hear what is being said, the V. should speak louder. If the dummy breaks, the V. could apologize for the dummy's dental surgery, or the dummy could say it himself -- but neither should directly point out the broken hinge right there on stage. ~~And if the V. simply goes silent...~~ the V. should never simply go silent. Things happen, the V. could swallow a fly or something; he doesn't have to just stand there, but he also doesn't have to break character to indicate that he's having a problem. This is where we should focus the discussion of HOW to send a message in RARE cases.

and of course this is my personal lame analogy, and personal opinions, always subject to change (as anyone can see by reading back over this thread from the beginning). I have learned a lot by changing my own style of ARG-play over this past year.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:23 am

Slyfox
Unfettered

Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

Digging this back up for a moment

MageSteff wrote:

Orbital Colony had a semi-solid curtain, as it started out as a way for people to learn about how to run a game... Even so players respected the curtain and mainly left us alone while the game was running, except for a few offers to manage some of the back end details (website security). We learned a heck of a lot on that game, what worked, what didn't, what we would do differently, what we had the most fun with, and most importantly, the time input at various stages.

OC also had a meta site through which I believe players could have contacted the PM had they wished (though maybe I'm misremembering things)

BTW Hi Mage Smile

_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:08 am

Display posts from previous: Sort by:

Page 3 of 4 [49 Posts]

Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Forum index » Meta » General META Discussion

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
You cannot post calendar events in this forum