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Slyfox
Unfettered


Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

Varin,

I suggest we;

Keep it simple.

Be up front with players and PMs that This Is A Game (TIAG) and a learning/teaching exercise so they should get off their high horses about curtains on this one.

Possibly have 1 or 2 experienced PMs to control the ARC, veto anything which will torpedo the game and oversee all the separate groups and ensure that everyone is heading in the same direction.

Remember were here to have fun.
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:52 pm
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Flynn
Decorated


Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

Varin wrote:
1. Would it be a good idea to enlist some veterans as mentors? I had thought of this earlier, but I guess never posted it. Maybe each team could have a mentor to ask questions and advice to? Or do we want to do this on our own? On the one hand I kind of like doing it on our own so that we can learn from our mistakes. But on the other hand, I'd like this to be at least somewhat enjoyable for those playing along by minimizing screw ups.

2. How long do we want each of the parts to run? I think short is good. What do you guys think? I guess this sort of depends on how many teams (we have 16 signups now) and the theme we pick. If we want this to be just a taste of PM'ing I'd say we don't want it to be too long for each team.


1. I'd say this is a good idea, if there's anyone willing to keep us in line Wink Maybe just someone to rein in any runaway enthusiasm, and point out anything really dumb that we might start thinking about. Judging from what's been said so far in this thread, I think the biggest danger is that we try to run before we can walk and end up in way over our heads. It's a hell of a way to learn, but I'd rather go slow and steady to start with Smile

2. I was just thinking about this myself. My vote is for short - maybe a couple of weeks max per part. Remember that MU "only" ran for about 6-8 weeks, and that was a full blown game with all the effort that requires on the part of the PM's. Even with just a couple of weeks/episode and a week of "tweaking time" between them, with 3 teams (?) that still gives us over 2 months of game...

The general feeling as regards story seems to be to go for an overall story arc - maybe we need an agreement between the teams as regards killing/blowing up/otherwise massively changing any major characters or locations. I totally agree about keeping this fairly low key, and not losing sight of the fact that this is practice. If we screw up, well, I'll nip down to the fishmongers and buy us a boatload of trout Very Happy

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:54 pm
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bill
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Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 614
Location: Tampa

Two points I want to make.

First, being a PM requires a huge commitment of both time and financial resources. I've offered hosting to help offset one of the bigger expenses, but you guys will inevitably want to spend money on things like relevant domain names, swag, etc. Players will typically NOT contribute much of the overall budget. A few will donate more than their fair share but most will not contribute anything.

And the time commitment can not be overstated. It takes a lot of time to work out a story conducive to gameplay, develop content, figure out how to integrate puzzles into the story, develop credible characters, plan for interactive elements, redo the story, etc. etc. And this is all before you even launch. Once you go live, you have to manage those interactions, follow the player groups, adjust your content and puzzles, adjust your story, and manage websites, etc.

It really is time consuming and if you don't have a couple of people willing to do whatever it takes to keep things moving, progress falls off very quickly. Pareto's Principle definitely applies on both sides of the curtain.

With all that said, my second point would be to suggest setting a limit up front about how many websites you want, how much interaction you need and how many characters need to be fleshed out. Remember that the more you create, the more you will need to maintain once you go live. Scale the experiment to about half what you expect your resources to be. I promise it will grow to easily consume the rest if it gets close to going live.

I don't say this to discourage anyone from diving in, but when you volunteer, make sure you understand the commitment you are making. There will be a whole team out there counting on you to deliver what you commit to doing. Also, if at all possible, make sure there is overlap in skillsets. Having only one person with any specific skill is setting your team up for potential failure. Life happens and people have to deal with Real World issues. Be prepared for that.

One more parting thought. Before you divide up into groups, everyone should collaborate on the overall story. Once you have a general outline, then split the work up into parts and have a clear set of milestones that indicate when you are transitioning to the next team. You don't want to end up with a bunch of unusable content because the story took an unexpected twist.

And have fun!
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Bill
http://deaddrop.us/
Dedicated to Alternate Reality Gaming


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:10 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

wb wrote:

One more parting thought. Before you divide up into groups, everyone should collaborate on the overall story. Once you have a general outline, then split the work up into parts and have a clear set of milestones that indicate when you are transitioning to the next team. You don't want to end up with a bunch of unusable content because the story took an unexpected twist.

And have fun!


I think this is a great suggestion. This would get rid of some of the pitfalls of an overall story arc. We can all get together and work out the story line and then divide up. Thanks wb Smile
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:25 pm
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bagsbee
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Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 417
Location: NYC

Re: Issues

Varin wrote:
1. Would it be a good idea to enlist some veterans as mentors? I had thought of this earlier, but I guess never posted it. Maybe each team could have a mentor to ask questions and advice to? Or do we want to do this on our own? On the one hand I kind of like doing it on our own so that we can learn from our mistakes. But on the other hand, I'd like this to be at least somewhat enjoyable for those playing along by minimizing screw ups. Wink


I don't think having a dedicated mentor is necessary. I'd imagine if we have questions along the way (i.e., "In your experience, is it a bad idea to do XYZ?"), some former PMs would be willing to help...right Brooke? Wink

Varin wrote:
2. How long do we want each of the parts to run? I think short is good. What do you guys think? I guess this sort of depends on how many teams (we have 16 signups now) and the theme we pick. If we want this to be just a taste of PM'ing I'd say we don't want it to be too long for each team.


The shorter the better, I'd say. Remember, the longer the run time, the longer the prep time, which means the longer the breaks between parts.

Varin wrote:
Great start on theme ideas by the way. So have we decided if we are going to go with one story arc that the teams follow (part I, part II, etc.) or is each team going to have a stand alone story with a common theme? I think there are pitfalls and benefits to each.

Stand alone stories will allow for a bit more creativity and wiggle room, but time will be a bit more limited because you have to fit the beginning, middle and end into just your teams time frame.

An umbrella story arc allows us to tell the story over a longer period of time so we can get to the juicy details. This way we also have to be on our toes and pay attention to what the previous team is doing. This might be a good exercise. The pitfall for this is that we're losing some creative control. If Team A kills off half the population from a deadly virus, Team B will have to deal with the dead bodies. (ick, I can't believe I just used that as an example)


I have a hybrid suggestion, which I'll explain by way of analogy. There was a sketch comedy show on HBO called Mr. Show, where each of the sketches was different, but there was always a transition between the sketches, something to tie them together. We could use this same approach. For example:

- All the teams get together and agree on a starting point - 3 main characters, 4 sub-characters, 1 main plot, 2 subplots, 5 websites
- Team A states: By the end of our part, Sub-character 2 is dead, Main character 3 is in the hospital, Website xyz.com is down, sub-character 5 has been added
- Team B states: By the end of our part, Main character 3 is out of hospital but missing, Sub-characters 2 & 4 are plotting against Main character 1, Building A in subplot 2 is destroyed, etc, etc.

There would have to be some collaboration between the teams to nail down the transitions, but none of the teams know the details of the other parts. So, using the above example, Team C knows Main Character 3 is missing, but they don't know why. This provides enough structure for teams to do preliminary development, and since teams can have their own twists and turns, it'll stimulate the creative process and keep teams on their toes.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:38 pm
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Varin wrote:
aiesha_anonymous wrote:

My other question is how far behind the curtain we should attempt to go. For example, should we now transfer discussion to somewhere secret and try to go TINAG?


A veteren PM has kindly offered the use of a private bulletin board (a phpbb like this one) to discuss puzzles and plot twists and such. Would that work for us?

Thanks Wink


Ursulla has started the Orbital_colony group over at Yahoo, members only. this or the other place would work.

Bill wrote:
... but you guys will inevitably want to spend money on things like relevant domain names, swag, etc. Players will typically NOT contribute much of the overall budget. A few will donate more than their fair share but most will not contribute anything.


Um... no, that wasn't what I was talking about. The point was to not buy domain names & such, but use free resources so that those of us on a limited budget can still put together something. We have numerous places to do that, Yahoo, Angelfire/Lycos, Geocities, etc. It should still be possible to get our content up and linked where it needs to be linked. This way, no one or two or 5 gets stuck financing what is basically "practice" and save those pennies for a place where the full curtain and atmosphere will be in effect.
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:01 pm
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

Just wanted to say again that anyone who wants to join in is welcome. This may be a "training grounds" ARG, but we still want it to be fun and include anyone who wants to take part. Very Happy
_________________
"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:18 pm
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Flynn
Decorated


Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

After reading all the ideas for the basis of the story, I've got too many ideas to put in a post here, so I've thrown together a very basic page with some ideas on it here.

*Disclaimer* When I say thrown together, I mean it. It's got a logo and some text. It's not meant to be any kind of proper site, it's done in Notepad. Just wanted to throw some ideas out there, cos I'm sat at home with nothing better to do and needed to make something Wink

EDIT - now there's a picture as well. Woo. Just playing with ideas really Laughing

PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:52 pm
Last edited by Flynn on Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Flynn wrote:
After reading all the ideas for the basis of the story, I've got too many ideas to put in a post here, so I've thrown together a very basic page with some ideas on it here.


Flynn, I like it, I like it. Sometimes simple is better. It looks very very nice. Very Happy

*edit* OMG you even found reference pages!
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:08 pm
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Slyfox
Unfettered


Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

Orbicon Inc

Flynn, Looks good Very Happy.

Q.) Do you propose the research facility to be owned by Orbicon?. How large do you image New Dawn to be?; Is the mining work complete? Are there any competitors to Orbicon?

If this is to work we need to agree on a PM to 'take ownership' of setting the where and the when. Then, set a deadline for ideas and suggestions. For this we might need to set up an email address so that good plot ideas aren't posted in public. Once all the ideas are in one or two experienced PMs will need to sift through it all and set it all in stone (no pun intended).

So, do we still need to decide on an earthside facility? Define a few major characters for the arc? Set some ground rules for respecting others work?
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:58 am
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Slyfox
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Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 323
Location: Manchester, UK

Orbicon Inc

Is this an omen for success or failure?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3517319.stm
_________________
"I mean, think about it.....its on the internet, right? Therefor, it's GOT to be real!! I mean, who would use the internet to lie? That'd just be crazy!" --- StercusMaximus

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:38 am
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Flynn
Decorated


Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

Slyfox wrote:
Q.) Do you propose the research facility to be owned by Orbicon?. How large do you image New Dawn to be?; Is the mining work complete? Are there any competitors to Orbicon?


Aaargh! So many questions Very Happy Seriously - thanks for the positive feedback folks. Bear in mind that I put the page together because I had various ideas from various people running around in my head, and rather than try make some sort of sense of what I was thinking here, I found it easier to have a go at putting some kind of page together. I guess what I'm trying to say is that what's there is there purely as one suggestion, so I hadn't really put any thought into the fine detail.

*EDIT - potential spoilers removed Cool Head to Yahoo (for now) for answers to Slyfox's questions*

A couple of things - as you may have guessed, somehow we came upon a theme that happens to coincide with a topic that fascinates me, which is probably why I've got so into the idea. If everyone's happy with the basic idea, I'd be happy to start working on a "proper" Orbicon site along the lines of the one I've already done. However, I don't want to push people down a road they aren't comfortable with - especially as we are going to ask different teams to work with this material. Can we get some indication if everyone's happy with the outline? Oh - bear in mind that action doesn't have to happen in orbit. We have a ground station to play with, too, as Slyfox mentioned.

Finally, you probably noticed I was a bit vague about when this was all happening. I'm thinking near future - next 15-20 years (this is the timescale that the most optimistic space elevator scientists talk about). With the added impetus of a near miss with an asteroid, and the fact that the material for our orbital station is just sitting there waiting to be exploited, and I reckon this is believable (just Very Happy )

Phew. Amazing what goes through your mind when have a dull few hours in the car Shocked

EDIT - Slyfox, I just noticed your location. Laughing Laughing How did you get up there??

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:08 pm
Last edited by Flynn on Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:34 pm; edited 2 times in total
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MageSteff
Pretty talky there aintcha, Talky?


Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 2716
Location: State of Denial

Flynn wrote:

Research facility owned and managed by Orbicon as an integral part of the OTS, ...

I was thinking that Orbicon would have no competitors, but a thought this morning was that we could have an anti-Orbicon pressure group.


I think it is time to move this portion of the discussion to either Delphi, Yahoogroups or to the phpBB that was offered.
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Magesteff
A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. - Margaret Mead


PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:02 pm
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Flynn
Decorated


Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 240
Location: UK

Magesteff wrote:
I think it is time to move this portion of the discussion to either Delphi, Yahoogroups or to the phpBB that was offered.


Yep, agreed. I'll copy my post to the Yahoo group - if we decide to go elsewhere we can easily repost it.

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 2:18 pm
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Kueko
Guest


Maybe a few of us already have domain they are willing to loan for the game... though it isn't nessacary I guess. I, for one, have Arkinia.com which may or may not be useable for our purposes...

PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:27 pm
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