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Drawing the line
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

 		rofl, I didn't realize my avatar was a puzzle Shocked Embarassed Laughing Cool

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:47 am
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grumpyboy
Unfettered

Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 660
colin wrote:
rofl, I didn't realize my avatar was a puzzle Shocked Embarassed Laughing Cool


who said puzzle! (/me comes in and looks around)... nevermind... Razz

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:02 am
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		My two cents
Players need a "safe" area where they know that they can work collaboratively and trust the other players to adhere to a sort of unwritten ethical code. God knows that I would get nowhere working alone and would quickly give up.

I know a little bit about the Acheron and Aware situations and I think they are completely different circumstances. In Acheron the BTS people were needed to help keep the game going and Addle started her guide because no one else (other than GrumpyBoy at Collective Detective, you rock gb!) was writing one. In Aware, Krystal volunteered to do the guide, but she didn't have to, we were considering setting up what we are doing now, the WIKI, to see how that would work as a group guide. She actively stepped in, which we appreciated at the time, but by doing so she interfered with a rather organic process of the group deciding how to make the guide.

Most of us realized she was in-game as soon as she posted that she was going and was paying half her ticket, this just wasn't credible. (particularly as the character she was going to see had just posted a threat to "carve" something in another character's belly) Even if Krystal became BTS after she started playing, which frankly, I don't believe, she should have stopped posting her stuff as soon as she decided that and they could have handled the whole disappearance another way.

Even before her leaving, Krystal did several things that I wouldn't have expected a trusted team player of mine to do and I had already decided that I wouldn't trust her information or confide anything that I didn't want given to in-game characters to her.

As now I don't know who is BTS or not, I have changed the way I am playing. For example, at this point I am only posting the relevant summaries of information that I choose to share with the group, rather than complete logs or emails, I would not have done this before. I am not posting to the public group site of Melody. And, I will admit that I had been considering setting up a "sub-group" of people that I know, finding an additional place to chat and keep our pooled information. As this is detrimental to the spirit of the game, I haven't yet done so. (I am admitting this just as a confirmation that people will find or create a place that they feel "safe" if they know or suspect that the PMs or BTS people are playing in such a way as to influence the players. )

So I would have to say that I feel that Krystal interfered with the game and manipulated it; that her actions have made me reconsider the way that I play the game; and, that I think the whole thing could have been handled in a way that didn't manipulate the game.

That being said, I will try to help her character if she is truly in danger or being harmed in any way.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:24 am
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Myssfitz
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Joined: 26 Feb 2003
Posts: 695
Location: In the pasture

 		Re: My two cents
rose wrote:
So I would have to say that I feel that Krystal interfered with the game and manipulated it; that her actions have made me reconsider the way that I play the game; and, that I think the whole thing could have been handled in a way that didn't manipulate the game.

That being said, I will try to help her character if she is truly in danger or being harmed in any way.


I've been sitting back reading all this posts about Krystal. I didn't have anything to say on the topic, until now. The game is called AWARE for a reason. What reason, I don't yet. But I'm getting an idea. If Krystal was in game from the beginning or decided to become in game after it started is really not the point (IMHO). Rose said it best. "Her actions have made me reconsider the way that I play the game". And her actions have made me rethink how I will play too. Her manipulations, whether wrong or right, is new. It's getting us to think differently. It's just part of the game. I don't think it's meant to get us to take sides here. The taking of sides is meant to happen in the game.

rose wrote:
And, I will admit that I had been considering setting up a "sub-group" of people that I know, finding an additional place to chat and keep our pooled information. As this is detrimental to the spirit of the game, I haven't yet done so. (I am admitting this just as a confirmation that people will find or create a place that they feel "safe" if they know or suspect that the PMs or BTS people are playing in such a way as to influence the players. )


I really hope that this doesn't happen. I don't think that this Krystal situation was meant to split us up here. It's just too make us more AWARE. To be careful about who we trust. We know most of the players. And it really stinks for the other new players who really want to play. Now they are being considered in-game by default. I personally don't think this will happen again. I don't know why, but I think it happened to make a point. One point. We don't know whether to trust Ideltech or Roddington. Krystal's dissaperance is just to reinterate to NOT trust the Professor, not to NOT trust everyone else. I know this board is meant as a safe haven. I still feel safe. And if the PM's are reading this, I seriously doubt that they will do it again. (hint, hint Wink ) So I'm going to take this as part of the story. A one time thing to clarify the Professors' state of mind.

And I thought we were all adults here. That we could rise above this part of the story and stick together. Maybe that's what we are supposed to do. Be more AWARE of in-game characters and not trust them, but trust each other. So I hope we can all stay on this board and pool info together. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:35 am
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colin
Entrenched

Joined: 13 Oct 2003
Posts: 810
Location: Australia

 		Re: My two cents
Myssfitz wrote:
And I thought we were all adults here.... but trust each other....


I kinda hope the demographic is wider than just adults. how can we trust each other when we don't know who each other is?

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:35 am
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

 		Re: My two cents
colin wrote:
how can we trust each other when we don't know who each other is?


Interesting question. I don't think it had to be asked before. In games previous to AWARE, we all worked together toward the same goal. Except for maybe a few rogues with bad intentions. They were either stopped or ignored by the PMs and players. The PMs know how they want the game to go. They're not going to let somebody with bad intentions ruin the game.

AWARE is different. The PM has chosed to include UF in the game, where usually it is our safe haven to discuss the game. Now how do we react? Do we divide into secret groups competing with each other and break apart the community? Or do we still work together and have faith that the PM knows how he wants this game to progress? Even if we formed secret groups of people that we think we know how do we know that they aren't BTS?

Another question... If the PM has decided to use UF in the game, how does this affect players who aren't playing at UF? What about CD? Or people playing on their own?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:15 pm
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Wolf
Decorated


Joined: 26 Sep 2002
Posts: 292

 		An interesting wrinkle. From http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=34697#34697

Quote:
If anyone think they may be of service in either promoting or helping this game be a success please let me know. The only thing is, if you want and can help I won't let you play the game for obvious reasons. But most of this is already well under control.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:37 pm
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NashCarey
Veteran

Joined: 11 Dec 2003
Posts: 102
Location: Nierstein, Germany

 		Just to Think
Wow, this game is different. Far too many new concepts and ideas to grasp at one point. Maybe the creator should of done a little less. People in Hollywood are starting to say, "less is more." Or maybe he should of just told us all the things he was going to do before he did them so we could all know what is real and what is fiction. Here is even a more novel idea. He does everything inside the narrow little box and has no new ideas to share. Then we can all be happy.

Or maybe we can trust he, and the MANY experienced people working with him, know what they are doing. He could tell you what happened, but that would hurt the curtain.

I am just trying to get into his head a little. Do you think I am way off base?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:49 pm
Last edited by NashCarey on Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Varin
I Have No Life


Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 2456
Location: South of where I used to be

 		Re: Just to Think
NashCarey wrote:
Wow, this game is different. Far too many new concepts and ideas to grasp at one point. Maybe the creator should of done a little less. People in Hollywood are starting to say, "less is more." Or maybe he should of just told us all the things he was going to do before he did them so we could all know what is real and what is fiction. Here is even a more novel idea. He does everything inside the narrow little box and has no new ideas to share. Then we can all be happy

Or maybe we can trust he, and the MANY experienced people working with him, know what they are doing. He could tell you what happened, but that would hurt the curtain.

I am just trying to get into his head a little. Do you think I am way off base?


Now now. No need for that Wink This is what the META Discussion area is for - META discussions. I, for one, never said that we shouldn't trust that the PMs know what they are doing. PM'ing isn't easy and I know that. We're not trying to criticize you here.

Here comes the BUT...

But you had to expect some discussion when the game used UF when it has always been accepted as off-limits for characters. When something is generally accepted like this and it is tested you have to do one of two things. Either...

1. discuss and change what is generally accepted
2. discuss and then state more clearly what is acceptable.

Both require discussion and that's what we're doing. I certainly don't know what your intentions are and I don't claim to. It could be that you are trying to shake up the genre. It could be you didn't know what was generally acceptable. It could be a myriad of other things. I don't know. But you can't expect us to just start being blind sheep. We wouldn't be the intelligent, puzzle cracking, analytical people that PMs are making ARGs for if we didn't discuss things like this.

Smile
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"I still miss him to this day and probably always will." - Todd Keeler, Chasing the Wish

"meta meta meta, I made you out of play..." ~ j5

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:19 pm
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vpisteve
Asshatministrator


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
Posts: 2441
Location: 1987

 		Along these same lines, courtesy of the unfiction historical society:

http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2591#2591

To me, there are reasons some things work well and some things don't. There are reasons players respond one way and not another. You can see it if you look at past games.

Hmm, I'm reminded of a situation on a music industry board I frequent. Users were becoming concerned because there were some 'sponsored' areas of the board frequented by reps for companies that provided certain products. Some folks felt that their active presence and posting inhibited folks' feeling like they were free to openly discuss and criticize those products, because if they did, the reps would jump in and get very defensive, almost take it personally, etc.

Anyway, I just want to say again that my opinions stated above and in the linked thread are just that: my opinions. As far as 'policy' here on unfiction, that's up to Spacebass. Very Happy

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:53 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 1678
Location: The Shiny Castle in the Sky, Full of Cotton Candy and Hazelnut Lattes
vpisteve wrote:
To me, there are reasons some things work well and some things don't. There are reasons players respond one way and not another. You can see it if you look at past games. .......
As far as 'policy' here on unfiction, that's up to Spacebass. Very Happy



*applauds* excellent points, again Stevarino.

Personally (again, views expressed here are not representative of Unfiction or the community as a whole), I've always considered UnFiction to be a *resource* for players, not a place to play. Sure, we post up little puzzles to keep each other sharp, but I further contend that that in itself is a resource and a benefit to the community.

However, I've also thought that, as a PM, to use UnFiction as a means to interact with the players seemed a bit ... wrong. If I wanted my players to interact with my characters, I'd set up specific places for it, e.g. chat rooms, yahoo groups, web sites, etc. I *personally* wouldn't use a previously established site, such as UnFiction, as my personal PM playground. I don't think its the intention of the site. It lists itself, as do the rest of the ARGN network sites, as sites for player resources and thoughtful discussion on the games and the genre's progression and in general (which, btw, we're doing in this thread, and by no means should this be considered as AWARE bashing, Mr Carey).

As far as what others may choose to do with their personal games is a matter to be discussed via UF policy, such as Stevarino so aptly points out. I, again very personally, don't believe users should have more than one identity, especially if said user is using the multiple identies to generate talk about a game, either through multiple posts or "shilling". Further along this line, I don't believe Unfiction should be used as a publicity machine for games or their PMs.

I'll admit, I have this hallowed vision of UF, glowing like an orb of goodness, where the cherished lines of respect and ethics are unmarred, allowing for continued academic prose, thoughtful discussion and creative genius to thrive. Perhaps that's wrong and naive.

Perhaps I'm just not aware enough Wink

</seriously blabby ramblings. Damn, I'm starting to sound like Ozy Wink >
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:18 pm
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jamesi
Sentient Being


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 2195
Location: Canadia

 		Edit: I preface these comments by saying that they are my own and do not represent unforums in any way....

Boy oh boy, I'd love to be able to chime in on this one, but I'd be re-treading every intelligent thing said in this thread so far. For the record, I think the curtain should always be air-tight and the UnForums should be shill, troll, and in-game character free.

Whatever/whoever Krysbabe is, I'm a little disillusioned by her input/presense at this point. No offense, but I can't trust the accuracy of the information of any thread when it becomes tainted/slanted in the direction of a well placed in-game entity.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:11 pm
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Ozy_y2k
Unfettered


Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 460
Location: Carmel, Indiana
Quote:
</seriously blabby ramblings. Damn, I'm starting to sound like Ozy Wink >


Hey!!!!! I hardly never say NUTHIN' anymore!!!! Wha'dya mean, "sound like Ozy"?!?!? Evil or Very Mad

PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:28 pm
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ScarpeGrosse
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Nov 2002
Posts: 1678
Location: The Shiny Castle in the Sky, Full of Cotton Candy and Hazelnut Lattes
Ozy_y2k wrote:
Hey!!!!! I hardly never say NUTHIN' anymore!!!!


Which is another discussion for another thread ;D
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Allow me to take off my 'assistant skirt' and put on my 'Barbara Streisand in The Prince of Tides ass-masking therapist pantsuit.'

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:30 pm
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SpaceBass
The BADministrator


Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 2701
Location: pellucidar

 		You guys don't need me.
jamesi wrote:
...I'd love to be able to chime in on this one, but I'd be re-treading every intelligent thing said in this thread so far.
colin wrote:
I kinda hope the demographic is wider than just adults.
addlepated wrote:
Personally, I feel like the players really do need a "safe area" to post without fears of getting scrambled by the PMs.
Flynn wrote:
...I personally agree with the "PM's don't post on player boards" idea.
Caterpillar wrote:
...I personally would not like to see Unf. used as an in-game platform. I'd like to see it kept as the player's base.

To me Unfiction is the line.
...I don't think browsing/lurking is the problem.
Colin wrote:
If people feel they are messed around(hoaxes, in-game characters posting here) by public boards they will create their own forums/groups/factions with people they know they can trust. this will destroy the community aspect of ARGs. and make it hard for PMs to track
addlepated wrote:
I don't mind lurking PMs one bit. It's when they de-lurk and start casting aspersions, or when they come onto a channel and start leading players around by the nose, that I get bothered.
rose wrote:
Players need a "safe" area where they know that they can work collaboratively and trust the other players to adhere to a sort of unwritten ethical code.
Myssfitz wrote:
I don't think that this Krystal situation was meant to split us up here.
vpisteve wrote:
To me, there are reasons some things work well and some things don't. There are reasons players respond one way and not another. You can see it if you look at past games.
ScarpeGrosse wrote:
The key to these successes is that the players/BTS/PMs did not use whatever knowledge they had about the game to manipulate other players through chats, forum posts, etc.

Its like an ethical code. You just don't mess around with that. I think it cheapens the experience of solving a game/puzzle/mystery as a "community", turning it into more of a "who can you trust" dog-eat-dog last one to the finish line wins wins wins kind of atmosphere.
The *nice* thing about Unfiction is that the people involved prefer to, and enjoy collaborating on games. I tend to frown on anything that might possibly ruin that feeling.

...However, I've also thought that, as a PM, to use UnFiction as a means to interact with the players seemed a bit ... wrong. If I wanted my players to interact with my characters, I'd set up specific places for it, e.g. chat rooms, yahoo groups, web sites, etc. I *personally* wouldn't use a previously established site, such as UnFiction, as my personal PM playground. I don't think its the intention of the site.
vpisteve wrote:
...there is already a line drawn in the Terms of Use of these forums...

Beyond that, it has generally been understood that these forums are "out-of-game" and that posts by entities that are revealed to be in-game characters are usually considered a violation of the Terms of Use. Posting here as an in-game character can lead to all sorts of abuse and chaos, with nothing stopping regular users from pretending to be in-game, for instance, and thereby wreaking havoc.

...I really prefer the IRON Curtain approach to ARGS.
jamesi wrote:
For the record, I think the curtain should always be air-tight and the UnForums should be shill, troll, and in-game character free.
Varin wrote:
I don't want in-game characters posting here.
ScarpeGrosse said rather than wrote:
Don't pee in other people's pools.

Yup.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:46 pm
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