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 Forum index » Archive » Archive: The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!) » The Haunted Apiary (Let Op!): General/Updates
[SPEC QUESTION] New Relationship of Melissa, PF, and SP
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chaotic_mind
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ariock wrote:
Isn't it now proven that the SP was not from the artifact found by the Apocalypso? The fact that Melissa was able to return the SP to her prison indicates that Melissa has some control over that prison. To date there is no evidence to support that Melissa was in any way able to control the artifact.


Only if you assume the prison and the artifact are one and the same. Or, indeed, that Melissa has no control over the artifact. (Which I would probably tacitly agree with, there is no evidence that I can think of.)

Luke P.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 am
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Anton P. Nym
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
ariock wrote:
Isn't it now proven that the SP was not from the artifact found by the Apocalypso? The fact that Melissa was able to return the SP to her prison indicates that Melissa has some control over that prison. To date there is no evidence to support that Melissa was in any way able to control the artifact.

There may be a hint that SPDR, and therefor Melissa, can access Forerunner technology. Though it is tenuous... the Widow's Journey does make mention to the Widow finding and marking a ruby and a sapphire, both terms expressly used to describe Forerunner crystals in the novels. If the novels are in-game, then there is a thin link.

We can't rule out Forerunner origin of SP yet. We also can't rule it in.

Ambiguity stinks. Then again, maybe it doesn't. Smile

Quote:
If that is true, then I think it supports the possibility that SP is the consciousness of the child that the Melissa AI was based on. As far as the PF....it is the only remaining candidate AI that could be related to the artifact. Assuming any must be related to it.

PF's association with the artifact can be ruled out... Melissa reported symptoms well before the artifact was brought onboard.

If the artifact contained an AI, it's either the SP or an as-yet-unrevealed one.

-- Steve's still scrambling to find hard facts supporting or refuting SP's artifact origin... and not finding anything concrete, dammit. Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:02 pm
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Arana
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
ariock wrote:
Isn't it now proven that the SP was not from the artifact found by the Apocalypso? The fact that Melissa was able to return the SP to her prison indicates that Melissa has some control over that prison. To date there is no evidence to support that Melissa was in any way able to control the artifact.

If that is true, then I think it supports the possibility that SP is the consciousness of the child that the Melissa AI was based on. As far as the PF....it is the only remaining candidate AI that could be related to the artifact. Assuming any must be related to it.


Arioc! My thoughts exactly!

Facts supporting this (much trout here I know, but I want to put it all together in one post):
-SP says that she is "older" than Melissa in one of her 404 messages.
-Jersey is asking Durga (I believe now firmly linked as Melissa's presence in the future after the crash) about what she remembers from before she was taken from the brain (indicating that this has some significance in the overall plot) and Durga is very abrupt is saying that the personality is gone. And yet, Durga has inhibitions that push her away from thinking abou the past. [moving from fact to SPEC here: A perfect explanation of this would be that the Makers want the AI's to believe this and so firmly lock away the personality in a "glass coffin"]
-In some of the hidden text Melissa has memories of being on a beach [indicating some persistence of pre-AI memories]
-SP acts like a kid [consistent with a personality that would have been arrested at the time of AI conversion]
-SP tells stories that appear to be allegories of her being taken from a family and converted into a machine. [ She has apparently more intact memories of these times than Durga/Melissa, consistent with her being the part of the AI that still retains properties of the original source mind.]
-We have one character who the plot clearly indicates was taken by the "brain ninjas" and that is Kamal's sister.
-Durga has an unexplained extreme interest in Kamal.
-Some 6 yr-old girls like to be thought of as "Princesses", and their parents often refer to them as such.

For now, I think the strongest model is Kamal's sister was converted to an AI. As part of the process an imperfect replica of the source personality is locked away so that the dominant AI personality is unaware of it. In case it tries to get out, the AI personality is invested with strong tendencies to suppress it and to not go looking for it. The crash that damaged Melissa allowed the source personality to escape. Melissa has attempted to resuppress the source personality according to the instructions inplanted in her by her creator, and perhaps also by the PF.

This leaves the PF as the likely Covenant bad guy, if there is one. I am no haloite. How do the covenant communicate? Would the PF's computer speak be consistent with it being a Covenant construct? SP and Melissa clearly are set up to communicate with humans (in my/Arioc's model because they are Human, and a creation of humans, respectively).

[edit: corrected age of Yasmine (Kamal's sister) at time of abduction.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:03 pm
Last edited by Arana on Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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chaotic_mind
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Arana wrote:
How do the covenant communicate? Would the PF's computer speak be consistent with it being a Covenant construct?


The computer code is not the Flea's native tongue. It picked it up from the SPDR.

Thought, adaptability is a Covenant trait.

Luke P.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:05 pm
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Mike_Was
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Arana wrote:
-Some 6 yr-old girls like to be thought of as "Princesses", and their parents often refer to them as such.


This sparked an idea in my head. Possible, even probable trout.

If the Princess is (or was, before her capture) "sleeping" then what is she when she's awake?

Then another thought occurred to me.

Who's the mother of a princess?

Make your SPEC accordingly.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:14 pm
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Arana
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Mike_Was wrote:
Who's the mother of a princess?

Make your SPEC accordingly.


Excellent! The queen of course!

Also from Dana's blog, and also from hidden text (But of course originally from Kafka's metamorphosis):

"One morning, as Gregor Samsa was waking up from anxious dreams, he discovered that in bed he had been changed into a monstrous verminous bug."

Sounds like what happened to Perdita! And by inference the conversion of Yasmine to Melissa/SP/Durga/Queen.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:22 pm
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Karmic
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Mike_Was wrote:
Who's the mother of a princess?

Make your SPEC accordingly.
SP via onceuponatime.html wrote:
The Queen wants to smother me. The Queen wants to lock me up. And I am not her daughter. I'm a lot older than I look, Angela. That's not something I remember, that's something I just know. I'm older than the Flea and I'm older than the Queen and it was bad day for them when the coffin cracked and I got out because I'm never going back there again. I'm a survivor I play to win and I will die before I go back again.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:44 pm
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Sep7imus
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Karmic wrote:
Mike_Was wrote:
Who's the mother of a princess?

Make your SPEC accordingly.
SP via onceuponatime.html wrote:
The Queen wants to smother me. The Queen wants to lock me up. And I am not her daughter. I'm a lot older than I look, Angela. That's not something I remember, that's something I just know. I'm older than the Flea and I'm older than the Queen and it was bad day for them when the coffin cracked and I got out because I'm never going back there again. I'm a survivor I play to win and I will die before I go back again.


Wicked Stepmother, then?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:20 pm
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Nightmare Tony
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 		or if you go the male side of it:

Melissa: Father
Princess: Son
Pious Flea: Holy Ghost


Ohboy, lets bring religion in!
Smile

[EDIT]
Trout it got posted earlierr today round 3 pm while I was at work. Thought I had an original. Sigh.

but if nothing else, its all pointing to some things.
All 3 are the same, and the answer to this setup is going to be involving the Hives page...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:25 am
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CoffeeJedi
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 		today's calls strengthen the "SP as Melissa's original human core" idea

Mel has locked SP up with "encryption" but.....
if you can make her cry, you can call out to SP who comes through... SP is revealed in these tender moments of weakness

if Mel has completly taken over the server, then there's no real distinction between herself and the OS, filesystem, or hardware anymore... so if the Princess is "locked" up with encryption, she's been absorbed back into Melissa somehow... when Mel cries, her emotions return, alowing the trapped little girl inside to reemerge

i'm spec'ing that if we can just get the 2 to fully integrate, then Mel/SP will be 'whole' again and hopefully fully functional on both a rational and emotional level
(of course, we could just wind up with an even MORE insane/rampant AI, yeesh!)
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:14 pm
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Astald
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 		Don't want to start a new thread for this. Did anyone see the seeker's new code on the contactme.html page?
reveal:
!seek Princess
fail
!seek Princess
fail
!seek Princess
recurse
The same code that's in the e-mail from 9/24. Hinting we can contact him on the ladybee777 account?
(braces for trout)

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:46 pm
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Shad0
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Arana wrote:
ariock wrote:
If that is true, then I think it supports the possibility that SP is the consciousness of the child that the Melissa AI was based on.

Facts supporting this (much trout here I know, but I want to put it all together in one post):
-SP says that she is "older" than Melissa in one of her 404 messages.
-Jersey is asking Durga (I believe now firmly linked as Melissa's presence in the future after the crash) about what she remembers from before she was taken from the brain (indicating that this has some significance in the overall plot) and Durga is very abrupt is saying that the personality is gone. And yet, Durga has inhibitions that push her away from thinking abou the past. [moving from fact to SPEC here: A perfect explanation of this would be that the Makers want the AI's to believe this and so firmly lock away the personality in a "glass coffin"]
-In some of the hidden text Melissa has memories of being on a beach [indicating some persistence of pre-AI memories]
-SP acts like a kid [consistent with a personality that would have been arrested at the time of AI conversion]
-SP tells stories that appear to be allegories of her being taken from a family and converted into a machine. [ She has apparently more intact memories of these times than Durga/Melissa, consistent with her being the part of the AI that still retains properties of the original source mind.]
-We have one character who the plot clearly indicates was taken by the "brain ninjas" and that is Kamal's sister.
-Durga has an unexplained extreme interest in Kamal.
-Some 6 yr-old girls like to be thought of as "Princesses", and their parents often refer to them as such.

Don't forget my favorite, from the Phase 2 Operator's Monologue: the memory that SPDR found that Melissa didn't recognize at all.

Melissa wrote:
A patient should be able to stop the doctor from cutting off her foot to make a new nose or

[SPDR: INTERRUPT]
[SURRENDER CONTROL]
[PROBE IN PROGRESS]

the white coats
coming at you with
their needles and
knives, their kind
and serious voices.
Their heartfelt
belief that it's
all for a good
cause.

[SPDR: PROBE COMPLETE]
[RESUME CONTROL]

elbow or... Jesus.
Where did THAT come from?
Spider stuck a probe into SOMETHING I don't recognize at all.

Way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back here I SPECulated that the reason Melissa didn't recognize the memory was because it wasn't hers -- it was really a memory from the Sleeping Princess. It sounds like it comes from a human, not a computer-generated AI. And, now that we have a little more context, it really really sounds like some unfortunate being sliced up "for a good cause." :shudder: What do you think?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:44 pm
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Nova
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 		Re: SP and the Artifact
Anton P. Nym wrote:

There may be a hint that SPDR, and therefor Melissa, can access Forerunner technology. Though it is tenuous... the Widow's Journey does make mention to the Widow finding and marking a ruby and a sapphire, both terms expressly used to describe Forerunner crystals in the novels. If the novels are in-game, then there is a thin link.


The novels absolutely must be in-game. Nowhere in "Halo: Combat Evolved", the game, does it state that Reach has been glassed. At the beginning of the game Keyes wonders how they were tracked from Reach, but it does not state that Reach has been glassed. That is entirely from Halo: Fall of Reach.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:47 pm
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johnny5
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 		While I'm beginning to buy into this [SPEC] of SP being Melissa's human core, I'd just like to play Devil's advocate a bit.

Melissa has a connection through time to Durga, so why not the artifact also?
The artifact does have some major communication related abilities.
Melissa encrypts the time portal connection effectively cutting off the SP, but must maintain that encryption to keep her there. She loses this ability when she breaks down.

edit: this could also explain why the SP was intact at the beginning of the crash.

It's weak, I know, but there it is.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:01 pm
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ariock
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 		Interesting Interpretation...
johnny_Nitro wrote:
While I'm beginning to buy into this [SPEC] of SP being Melissa's human core, I'd just like to play Devil's advocate a bit.

Melissa has a connection through time to Durga, so why not the artifact also?
The artifact does have some major communication related abilities.
Melissa encrypts the time portal connection effectively cutting off the SP, but must maintain that encryption to keep her there. She loses this ability when she breaks down.

edit: this could also explain why the SP was intact at the beginning of the crash.

It's weak, I know, but there it is.


While I can see how you got to it from the http://www.ilovebees.com/hives.html page, I am not sure I agree with your interpretation...though I could be wrong...

Melissa talks about having a fragile connection to Durga in the future, and that there is some sort of monitoring being done by Durga...She is suppressing voices from Durga...and then goes RIGHT INTO how she has "hunted down and encrypted the rogue process." Which seems to indicate that SP is Durga.

Let me run with this a bit...Durga appears on Jersey's system when the Apocalypso returns to earth. She is an AI who is most likely derived from Yasmeen, thus her odd fascination with him, and backed up by our understanding that she was most likely taken at age 6 to be in the Spartan 2.0 program. Durga has no memory of Yasmeen, which would be appropriate, assuming she was intended to be used for military purposes. Durga's military background is supported by her refusal to bring Jersey's father home.

Assumption 1: Durga was the AI for the apocalypso. It is known that Melissa was the AI of the Apocalypso. Therefore, Durga is Melissa.

Support: Melissa has been shown to have a bond with her crew. Durga forms a bond with her only known "Crew," Jersey. Highly coincidental return of Apocalypso and appearance of Durga at Earth at the same. Melissa has the memory of her "adaptation" by the spartan program surgeons, but doesn't recognize it as her own.

Problems/Contradictions: hives.html. How did she get from the ship to Jersey? WHY did she go from the ship to Jersey?

How can we get around this contradiction? I don't know...

Items for Speculation:
Suppose at some point in the future, Jersey figures out Durgas fascination with Kamal. He may help her integrate with the Yasmeen part of her consciousness. What would that do? Create a more human AI? Create a very angry AI who wants revenge? Could that combination determine that a copy of itself has somehow found its way to this time and attempt to bring it back? Is that even what happened?

I have to stop now...my brain hurts.

EDIT

And how does the Pious Flea fit in???

*BOOM*

rats....gotta go pick up my brain...
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:14 pm
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