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[SPEC] - The gun, the characters, the whole overall story
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rose
...and then Magic happens


Joined: 26 Nov 2003
Posts: 4117

 		And what about Simon? What about Lucy? What would you do?
So now I was wondering, if I were Simon what would I do?

Going to Clay again to look for the gun would lead the "bad guys" to him- if Simon's first visit didn't give Clay away. (to recap: Clay has the gun. Lucy told Maurice and Simon about it. The cops don't yet know about Clay, at least Lucy didn't tell them.)

Where else would he go? He has to be on Kerry's list, maybe not the next target, but soon.

I think Simon is in trouble.

Same thing for Lucy. Where will she go? She needs a protector or at least a buddy. Now that Maurice is dead, who helps her? Simon? Clay? William? Too bad she doesn't know Corazon. Corazon is handy with her Glock. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:51 pm
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Dew
Kilroy

Joined: 06 Oct 2005
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 		Opps well I thought I had finally got the hang of this and found something good oh well thanks for the info

PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:08 pm
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Phaedra
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 		Hmm. I've gotten numerous requests in chat about this, and I promised Addlepated in IRC that I'd do a post on it, since IRC is not an ideal medium for extended explanations, so I may as well put it here. Don't feel obligated to read it; I am well aware it's possibly mind-numbing, and it is here only for those who are curious:

rose wrote:
Where else would he go? He has to be on Kerry's list, maybe not the next target, but soon.

I think Simon is in trouble.


I agree. As Rose notes, there's some suggestion that Simon may kick the bucket in the not-too-distant future.

EXPLANATION/WILD SPEC

I think Simon's going to die either Wednesday night or Thursday.

As noted somewhere else, I predicted Maurice would die on Rosh Hashanah (Tuesday, Oct. 4), and I SPEC, possibly wildly, that Simon will die on Yom Kippur.

First, the explanation I've been asked for -- what the heck am I talking about and what are these holidays?

HOPEFULLY REASONABLY PAINLESS RELIGIOUS EXPLANATION FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE/FEAR/ARE ANNOYED BY RELIGIOUS EXPLANATIONS (TM)

I will be quick, I promise. Wink

Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are a pair of Jewish holidays. The ten days beginning with Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are known as Yamim Noraim in Hebrew, which translates to the Days of Awe. In English, they're more commonly known as the High Holy Days. Although Hanukkah and Passover might be more familiar holidays to non-Jews (probably because they correspond season-wise with Christmas and Easter), from a theological perspective, the High Holy Days are the most important holidays on the Jewish calendar.

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year (it translates literally to "the head of the year"). Supposedly the anniversary of the world's creation, it is a celebration of G-d's sovereignty and the beginning of the introspection and soul-searching that take place during the Days of Awe. During this time, one seeks forgiveness from those one has hurt or offended over the course of the year, as tradition holds that G-d forgives sins committed against Himself on Yom Kippur, but to atone for sins committed against other human beings, you must first seek reconciliation with them.

The High Holy Days conclude with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, a 25-hour fast beginning before sunset the evening before and ending after sunset on the holiday, during which one prays for forgiveness for various sins (interestingly, one participates in praying, collectively, for forgiveness from sins which one has not committed individually).

Hopefully that wasn't too bad.

Okay, now as for why I think the holidays and the plot will intersect as far as people dying:

THEMES OF THE HOLIDAY AND HOW THEY MIGHT RELATE TO THE STORY

There are a number of themes relating to the High Holy Days that intersect in a very interesting way with the story. I originally thought that the timing was random, but now I'm not so sure, since my lit-major side is getting awfully excited.

1. First, it is a custom in some congregations for the community to attend Yom Kippur services in a kittel, the white robe in which the dead are buried. It is also a day which prompts one to look around the congregation and wonder which faces won't be there next year -- a day to confront mortality, so to speak.

But also, in a more secular general-mood sense, seeing a crowd of people in the ceremonial clothes they will be buried in could give one an odd sense of being suspended between life and death, (sort of like those poker games with dead people...) which brings us to...

2. Another theme of the holiday is that of G-d "settling accounts." Tradition holds that G-d has "books," in which He records who will live and die in the next year, who will have a good year versus a bad one, and so on. On Yom Kippur the books are closed; the accounts are settled. (This is the source of the holiday greeting which you may or may not have noticed us sharing in another thread. L'shanah tovah tikatev v'taihatem (in the singular masculine form, a little different from what RPGgame used) means "May you be inscribed and sealed for a good year." It's often shortened to L'shanah tovah which just means "[for] a good year.") Ideally, one makes amends and is ready to be returned to a sort of state of innocence at the end of the holiday, having met G-d face-to-face, atoned, and been forgiven.

It occurs to me that what Maurice and Simon were doing was essentially some account-settling of their own. However, it's somewhat ironic that two observant Jews would be hunting down and executing anyone, even Nazis. Under Jewish law, a capital sentence can't be imposed without some pretty extensive legal maneuvering, including two reliable witnesses to the crime. In other words, what they're doing, despite their show of observance, is very much not kosher. Furthermore, it's the Days of Awe right now, but they can't exactly clear the murders they've committed off the books, as they can't really seek forgiveness from people they've killed.

If I were them, I'd be rather nervous about comeuppance this week or next, whether divine or human.

3. Again, in a more secular sense, the terms "Day of Atonement" and "Days of Awe" have a pretty ominous-sounding ring to them. I don't know if I'd be able to resist playing off that if I were an author. Wink

4. There's an interesting sort of symmetry between Maurice and Simon.

Quote:
Simon got up and got the tefillin. He came back and Maurice took them and carefully wrapped Simon's arm, seven times. "Baruch Atah Adonai, elohainu, melech haolam, asher kidshanu b'mitzvotav v'tzivanu l'haniach t'fillin."

Simon smiled. Maurice, so at home in the world, was as awkward as a child with prayers. He had come so late to observance. It was the one place where Simon was the teacher. It gave them both comfort.


Maurice is the "teacher," the beginning, in the secular realm, and Simon the student (presumably, or at least the follower), the end; Simon is the "teacher" in the religious realm, and Maurice the student.

The High Holy Days also have a curious sort of symmetry -- Rosh Hashanah, as the "beginning/head of the year" presumably represents both the beginning of the new year and the end of the old one, and yet things still aren't settled until Yom Kippur, the end of the High Holy Days. In a way, one cannot move into the new year until Yom Kippur, so it represents the actual beginning, with the Days of Awe as a sort of liminal period between them, a time when things are still "up in the air," neither truly separate from the rest of the year nor truly part of it.

In that way, each holiday simultaneously represents both a beginning and an end.

Also, the holidays represent a transition from the secular to the spiritual. On Rosh Hashanah, one can still focus on the worldly: one's hopes for a good and prosperous new year are especially prominent; apples dipped in honey and other pleasant things are traditional food, and so on. Yom Kippur is a fast day, in which one abstains from any physical pleasure -- and even from satisfying many of one's physical needs -- so that one may concentrate more fully on the spiritual.

Looking at it this way, it was fully appropriate that Maurice (the secular leader of the pair) would die on Rosh Hashanah, while Simon (the spiritual leader of the pair) would die on Yom Kippur.

In any case, killing him off Wednesday evening (perhaps he'll join us for poker Shocked ) or Thursday would be a lovely piece of narrative symmetry.

That said, there may be evidence indicating this won't happen:

Poker Tournament wrote:
sandman: so what's simon going to do now maurice?
Dealer: sandman calls (94)
Dealer: thedealer calls (94)
Dealer: Dracula calls (94)
Dealer: J_dot_J calls (94)
Dealer: *** DEALING FLOP ***
mauricepikar: Simon is going to be all right, I think. I think it was time...
Dealer: sandman checks
Dealer: thedealer checks
Dealer: Dracula checks
sandman: does the work go on?
mauricepikar: ...for him to find a new direction in life.


That said, if Maurice didn't see death coming for him in advance, I'm not sure we should believe Simon will be "all right," just because Maurice says so -- I think the "all right" may refer, as Maurice says, to his being able to find a new direction/purpose in life, rather than him being "all right" in the sense of living.

Okay, I'll shut up now. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:21 am
Last edited by Phaedra on Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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Phaedra
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Dew wrote:
Opps well I thought I had finally got the hang of this and found something good oh well thanks for the info


Don't feel bad! You were doing exactly what I'd do! Smile It's just that someone out there decided to, um, name themselves after a character.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 1:23 am
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KermieD
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 		Re: [SPEC] - The gun, the characters, the whole overall stor
Abraxas wrote:
rose wrote:
Maurice - the last person to kill someone with it[..]

Is that spec or fact? Because I can't remember having read it somewhere. If it's definitely fact, I'd like to know. Thank you. Smile


It's fact, as far as Lucky can be trusted. Can't tell you where I saw it, but it's a quote from the game.

Quote:
I don't think Kerry is employed by anyone. I have no idea how The Buyer comes back into play, but somehow I doubt it will be via Kerry. I rather think it turns out that Kerry is his own guy and kills for his twisted sense of justice.


Agreed. BUT, I think Kerry's role in this is bigger and deeper than Kerry knows himself.

Quote:
What if Maurice is the same type as Kerry? I mean, back in the day Maurice killed people who he thought deserved it? In the 1969 text about the German he shot, right before he pulls the trigger he says, "Ich bin der Scharfrichter." .
Now, that means that he is an "executioner", but probably it is more than that. He was killing people he thought had to die. No hired gun. Just himself. Just like Kerry (at least I think that Kerry is on his own).
And Simon Bassi seems to be another one of those. He's Pikar's disciple, killing people who "deserve" it. That's why he wonders why Maurice hunts for the gun, "Why do we care about this guy? This guy has nothing to do with us, with what we do." (I'm still not sure what guy they are talking about, btw)
"What are these people to us?"
Doesn't that sound like a different philosophy of killing?


I disagree with the Simon part in particular. I think Simon's been a gun for hire who is too smart for that job. I think that's why Maurice said it was time for Simon to move on to other things in the tourney cha, not to mention that the picture of Simon shows a guy who doesn't appear to be either a thug or someone who's out for vengeance. Will it perhaps be important to know the whole story about how Simon ended up falling into this role as the heavy working for Maurice?

Quote:
Edit: But I have to add...being a gun-dealer is not exactly in harmony with this lifestyle. You must know that the guns you sell will kill lots of people who don't "deserve" it. Does a killer even think like that? I don't know. Razz


I don't know that Maurice falls into the True Lies "I only kill bad guys" profile. Just because he went after a suggested war criminal in South America doesn't mean that's the only force that drives him. Perhaps he did that because he was already at a fiscal point where he could do so just because he wanted to.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:09 am
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KermieD
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Joined: 16 Mar 2003
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Phaedra wrote:
Hmm. I've gotten numerous requests in chat about this, and I promised Addlepated in IRC that I'd do a post on it, since IRC is not an ideal medium for extended explanations, so I may as well put it here. Don't feel obligated to read it; I am well aware it's possibly mind-numbing, and it is here only for those who are curious:

rose wrote:
Where else would he go? He has to be on Kerry's list, maybe not the next target, but soon.

I think Simon is in trouble.


I agree. As Rose notes, there's some suggestion that Simon may kick the bucket in the not-to-distant future.

EXPLANATION/WILD SPEC

I think Simon's going to die either Wednesday night or Thursday.

As noted somewhere else, I predicted Maurice would die on Rosh Hashanah (Tuesday, Oct. 4), and I SPEC, possibly wildly, that Simon will die on Yom Kippur.

First, the explanation I've been asked for -- what the heck am I talking about and what are these holidays?

HOPEFULLY REASONABLY PAINLESS RELIGIOUS EXPLANATION FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE/FEAR/ARE ANNOYED BY RELIGIOUS EXPLANATIONS (TM)

I will be quick, I promise. Wink

Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are a pair of Jewish Holidays. The ten days beginning with Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are known as Yamim Noraim in Hebrew, which translates to the Days of Awe. In English, they're more commonly known as the High Holy Days. Although Hanukkah and Passover might be more familiar holidays to non-Jews (probably because they correspond season-wise with Christmas and Easter), from a theological perspective, the High Holy Days are the most important holidays on the Jewish calendar.

Rosh Hashanah is the Jewish New Year (it translates literally to "the head of the year"). Supposedly the anniversary of the world's creation, it is a celebration of G-d's sovereignty and the beginning of the introspection and soul-searching that take place during the Days of Awe. During this time, one seeks forgiveness from those one has hurt or offended over the course of the year, as tradition holds that G-d forgives sins committed against Himself on Yom Kippur, but to atone for sins committed against other human beings, you must first seek reconciliation with them.

The High Holy Days conclude with Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement, a 25-hour fast beginning before sunset the evening before and ending after sunset on the holiday, during which one prays for forgiveness for various sins (interestingly, one participates in praying, collectively, for forgiveness from sins which one has not committed individually).

Hopefully that wasn't too bad.

Okay, now as for why I think the holidays and the plot will intersect as far as people dying:

THEMES OF THE HOLIDAY AND HOW THEY MIGHT RELATE TO THE STORY

There are a number of themes relating to the High Holy Days that intersect in a very interesting way with the story. I originally thought that the timing was random, but now I'm not so sure, since my lit-major side is getting awfully excited.

1. First, it is a custom in some congregations for the community to attend Yom Kippur services in a kittel, the white robe in which the dead are buried. It is also a day which prompts one to look around the congregation and wonder which faces won't be there next year -- a day to confront mortality, so to speak.

But also, in a more secular general-mood sense, seeing a crowd of people in the ceremonial clothes they will be buried in could give one an odd sense of being suspended between life and death, (sort of like those poker games with dead people...) which brings us to...

2. Another theme of the holiday is that of G-d "settling accounts." Tradition holds that G-d has "books," in which He records who will live and die in the next year, who will have a good year versus a bad one, and so on. On Yom Kippur the books are closed; the accounts are settled. (This is the source of the holiday greeting which you may or may not have noticed us sharing in another thread. L'shanah tovah tikatev v'taihatem (in the singular masculine form, a little different from what RPGgame used) means "May you be inscribed and sealed for a good year." It's often shortened to L'shanah tovah which just means "[for] a good year.") Ideally, one makes amends and is ready to be returned to a sort of state of innocence at the end of the holiday, having met G-d face-to-face, atoned, and been forgiven.

It occurs to me that what Maurice and Simon were doing was essentially some account-settling of their own. However, it's somewhat ironic that two observant Jews would be hunting down and executing anyone, even Nazis. Under Jewish law, a capital sentence can't be imposed without some pretty extensive legal maneuvering, including two reliable witnesses to the crime. In other words, what they're doing, despite their show of observance, is very much not kosher. Furthermore, it's the Days of Awe right now, but they can't exactly clear the murders they've committed off the books, as they can't really seek forgiveness from people they've killed.

If I were them, I'd be rather nervous about comeuppance this week or next, whether divine or human.

3. Again, in a more secular sense, the terms "Day of Atonement" and "Days of Awe" have a pretty ominous-sounding ring to them. I don't know if I'd be able to resist playing off that if I were an author. Wink

4. There's an interesting sort of symmetry between Maurice and Simon.

Quote:
Simon got up and got the tefillin. He came back and Maurice took them and carefully wrapped Simon's arm, seven times. "Baruch Atah Adonai, elohainu, melech haolam, asher kidshanu b'mitzvotav v'tzivanu l'haniach t'fillin."

Simon smiled. Maurice, so at home in the world, was as awkward as a child with prayers. He had come so late to observance. It was the one place where Simon was the teacher. It gave them both comfort.


Maurice is the "teacher," the beginning, in the secular realm, and Simon the student (presumably, or at least the follower), the end; Simon is the "teacher" in the religious realm, and Maurice the student.

The High Holy Days also have a curious sort of symmetry -- Rosh Hashanah, as the "beginning/head of the year" presumably represents both the beginning of the new year and the end of the old one, and yet things still aren't settled until Yom Kippur, the end of the High Holy Days. In a way, one cannot move into the new year until Yom Kippur, so it represents the actual beginning, with the Days of Awe as a sort of liminal period between them, a time when things are still "up in the air," neither truly separate from the rest of the year nor truly part of it.

In that way, each holiday simultaneously represents both a beginning and an end.

Also, the holidays represent a transition from the secular to the spiritual. On Rosh Hashanah, one can still focus on the worldly: one's hopes for a good and prosperous new year are especially prominent; apples dipped in honey and other pleasant things are traditional food, and so on. Yom Kippur is a fast day, in which one abstains from any physical pleasure -- and even from satisfying many of one's physical needs -- so that one may concentrate more fully on the spiritual.

Looking at it this way, it was fully appropriate that Maurice (the secular leader of the pair) would die on Rosh Hashanah, while Simon (the spiritual leader of the pair) would die on Yom Kippur.

In any case, killing him off Wednesday evening (perhaps he'll join us for poker Shocked ) or Thursday would be a lovely piece of narrative symmetry.

That said, there may be evidence indicating this won't happen:

Poker Tournament wrote:
sandman: so what's simon going to do now maurice?
Dealer: sandman calls (94)
Dealer: thedealer calls (94)
Dealer: Dracula calls (94)
Dealer: J_dot_J calls (94)
Dealer: *** DEALING FLOP ***
mauricepikar: Simon is going to be all right, I think. I think it was time...
Dealer: sandman checks
Dealer: thedealer checks
Dealer: Dracula checks
sandman: does the work go on?
mauricepikar: ...for him to find a new direction in life.


That said, if Maurice didn't see death coming for him in advance, I'm not sure we should believe Simon will be "all right," just because Maurice says so -- I think the "all right" may refer, as Maurice says, to his being able to find a new direction/purpose in life, rather than him being "all right" in the sense of living.

Okay, I'll shut up now. Smile


Lot to digest there and some great thought put into it, but I think there are a couple of things overlooked across the board (not in this post per se, but in the spec going on across the board):

1. Maurice is new to practicing Judaism (forgive my ignorance....I know next to nothing about the faith), therefore Maurice's execution of the German in Paraguay wouldn't need to follow extensive legal issues.

2. I think in general that we're overemphasizing the influence of Judaism here. I think it was more of a puzzle solution/background scenery issue than it is a central plot point. This is a commercial game and that would be a social faux pas, not to mention that the PM's haven't really gotten close to being that deep (yet) beyond giving single puzzle clues. There have been just as many Latino references as Jewish ones in the game.

3. Let's remember that there are not 2 but at *least* 3 or 4 story lines going on: Lucy's, Matt Viet's, Kerry's and Spider's (not to mention digging into the past for Lucky's story). I thought Maurice was the 5th, but apparently not. It would appear he's a supporting character since he's dead. Rewards suggest that there are a bucketful of cards to be handed out and we're just getting started.

4. As a result of 3) and the fact that Simon bailed Lucy out of jail, I think Simon will find his new path as Lucy's newfound protector. I think that will be his newfound purpose. It has all the makings of the "look, we're both too damn tough to love anyone else, so we might as well have each other" story. I've seen talk for a while about Simon being Kerry's next victim here and in table chat, but I don't think that's the case. What has Simon actually done that's so horrible that would make him a target?

5. That being said, I was absolutely positive that Maurice was going to be a major player on the living side of the world as we now know it. Clearly, any reaction to this rebuttal should take that fact into consideration. I'm a n00b here, so please, put a touch of salt and lemon pepper on the trout before you smack me with it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:42 am
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Phaedra
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 		Kermie, when you're responding to a really long post like mine, would you mind not quoting the whole thing, just the parts to which you're responding? It makes for a lot of extra scrolling. Thanks. Smile

KermieD wrote:
1. Maurice is new to practicing Judaism (forgive my ignorance....I know next to nothing about the faith), therefore Maurice's execution of the German in Paraguay wouldn't need to follow extensive legal issues.


Most of my commentary above was just an attempt to support my wild SPEC that Simon's going to get knocked off in the middle of the next week, not necessarily a broader commentary on the use of religion in this particular story. Nevertheless:

Hmm. I'm probably just in an argumentative mood this morning, but...

Maurice is new to being an observant Jew. Unless he converted (which is possible but unlikely, I think), he's been Jewish his whole life (one of the ways in which Judaism differs from most world religions is that it is as much a culture as it is a religion -- if your parents are Jewish, even if you're an atheist, you're still Jewish). The ethics are the same whether you're an Extremely-Reform-Stick-A-Star-Of-David-On-The-Top-And-It's-A-Hanukkah-Bush-Not-
A-Christmas-Tree type of Jew, or whether you're Ultraorthodox. Vigilante killing is wrong. That doesn't mean that Maurice wouldn't be just as susceptible as anyone else to thinking that this is a special case -- goodness knows religious people disobey the dictates of their religion all the time because they think it's special circumstances -- but the point is the fact that he's become observant shouldn't make a difference in knowing that vigilante killing is wrong.

KermieD wrote:
2. I think in general that we're overemphasizing the influence of Judaism here. I think it was more of a puzzle solution/background scenery issue than it is a central plot point. This is a commercial game and that would be a social faux pas, not to mention that the PM's haven't really gotten close to being that deep (yet) beyond giving single puzzle clues. There have been just as many Latino references as Jewish ones in the game.


Being a Jewish character is a faux pas? Shocked

Kidding, kidding.

We may be overemphasizing. On the other hand, we got hit pretty heavily over the head with it: Hebrew to read, Buchenwald, mincha, etc. all in the first week or so. Not to mention that Maurice's reasons, as far as we can discern them, for killing people seem to be pretty intimately entwined with 20th-century Jewish history.

It may be all so much background color for a couple of characters, but I'd have a hard time seriously arguing that it hasn't affected the plot.

This next might touch off a META discussion, as it's been discussed before in other contexts, but...

As far as it being a faux pas, I'm not sure why it would. Granted, any time you deal, narratively, with Nazis/the Holocaust, you're treading on delicate ground, but I'm not sure why having religious characters would automatically be a faux pas. In real life, religion is often a strong motivating force for people, and I don't see any reason to sanitize it out of fiction.

It's not automatically offensive, IMANSHO, to have a religious character, even one that does bad things. If you start painting all members of the religion with the same brush, or suggesting that it is the religion itself that is the problem and not an individual or group's interpretation of it, you are of course asking for well-deserved trouble, but plenty of books and movies not primarily about religion have had religious characters both good and bad and the sky hasn't fallen. Smile

This game is asking us to play poker with people's tombstones. As far as inviting controversy goes, having a religious character or two seems rather mild in comparison. Wink

As far as the Hispanic characters -- their background may yet influence their actions, and through them, the plot.

Good characters are realistic. In real life, people's faith, heritage, culture and so on influence their behavior. Good fiction often mirrors that.

KermieD wrote:
3. Let's remember that there are not 2 but at *least* 3 or 4 story lines going on: Lucy's, Matt Viet's, Kerry's and Spider's (not to mention digging into the past for Lucky's story). I thought Maurice was the 5th, but apparently not. It would appear he's a supporting character since he's dead. Rewards suggest that there are a bucketful of cards to be handed out and we're just getting started.


Acknowledged and agreed. However, Maurice has figured rather prominently in our interactions with Lucky, who's our information source and the closest thing we have to an omniscient narrator.

KermieD wrote:
What has Simon actually done that's so horrible that would make him a target?


I don't think you end up a target because you've done something horrible. I think you end up a target when you get in the way of things various characters want. Like getting the Gun. Which makes him vulnerable.

KermieD wrote:
5. That being said, I was absolutely positive that Maurice was going to be a major player on the living side of the world as we now know it.


Heh. Interesting. I felt a sense of incipient mortality hanging over him for some reason as soon as I saw his picture.

However, pretty much all my SPEC during ILB was wrong (I thought the SP was a Forerunner program!), so take this all with several grains of salt.

KermieD wrote:
Clearly, any reaction to this rebuttal should take that fact into consideration. I'm a n00b here, so please, put a touch of salt and lemon pepper on the trout before you smack me with it.


This isn't trout, so far as I can tell, but should I ever offer you some, I will be sure to prepare it nicely. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:36 am
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Abraxas
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 		Re: [SPEC] - The gun, the characters, the whole overall stor
KermieD wrote:

[..]not to mention that the picture of Simon shows a guy who doesn't appear to be either a thug or someone who's out for vengeance.


But Maurice looks like one? Confused
When I first saw Maurice I thought the descriptions don't match with his picture.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:50 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


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 		story lines
HiKermieD! Welcome.

I broke this into 2 story lines because that was simplest for me. I could organize all the characters that way. I agree, that doesn't mean they are the only two- that is just the way I organized it.

Tony and Matt could easily be a third story. I put them in as a subplot. I see Tony's connection being through Kerry, who killed Paco. But they do have their own story.

Spider, Shaylee and Vaquero I put in with Lucy. But they do have a seperate thing going on.

Then there are the cops. I think that all three of them could have a story.

---
About Kerry working on his own. At first I thought he had his own sense of justice. And I could well be wrong about this spec. We are just pulling together threads of info here. Smile

My problem with that is how does Kerry find all these victims? How does he know such different people as Paco, Victor and Maurice? Paco he could have seen in the neighborhood. But it sounds like there are lots of dealers there, why just kill Paco? Why just that corner... (maybe kerry killed Ruben too.)

Victor he could have found on his own and set up too I guess. That murder required advance planning. But why Victor? And, I really don't think Kerry returned the safety deposit box key to Corazon because he is just a good guy. I think he had no idea where the box was. Maybe he will follow her to find out.

Maurice is the killing that convinced me Kerry wasn't working alone. First Maurice instantly identifies Kerry as a soldier. Second, how would Kerry know to kill Maurice?

And for what reason is Kerry killing him... For being an arms dealer? For bribing a cop? For a murder in Paraquay from 1969?

Of course I could be overemphasizing any part of this story. It may have nothing to do with Nazi's and WWII, gangs or anything else.
---

I remember that Victor asked Kerry "is this your dayjob?" So maybe he met Kerry before, elsewhere. That could be how Kerry convinces him to meet him out at the junk yard.

Sorry, this Kerry character really interests me. Smile

----
I expect to be surprised more than once before this is finished.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 12:53 pm
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KermieD
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 		I could be glossing over the Judaism part more than I should as well. I guess I saw it as an identifier and a backstory to justify a couple of puzzles and that could be way off. Vigilante killing is considered wrong in most of polite society though, so I don't know that his faith has anything to do with that. That being said, Nazi hunting was a semi-sanctioned occurrence for the Mossad. Maurice may have had a bit of a Mossad career after his war days, which could have led into the arms dealing either independently or as a semi-retired agent.

While you or I may not take offense at making Judaism a central plot point in a story about criminal dealings, I'm not sure everyone would take the same laid-back approach in this day of "hey, you cant portray us like that" from every socioethnic (is that a word?) group in existence.

I do think Simon's safe for now. Call it a hunch if you will, but I think the fact that he signed the bail bond for Lucy will be expanded a bit before Simon joins Maurice at the poker tables. Also, Maurice seemed to think Simon would be okay at the tourney.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:23 pm
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MageSteff
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 		Re: [SPEC] the gun, sethbrown
Dew wrote:
I am new at the and not sure if anyone else has seen this or if it is as important as I think it might be. Lucys brothers name is seth and he is a lawyer. so I looked him up and found this:




It has been mentioned elsewhere - but for those just getting into the game -

"Characters" (Lucky, Lucy, Spider, et. al.) jave their pictures on the left side of the profile page, with game related information on the right side.
Characters do not have a "quicklinks" section

"Players" (like you and me) Have the picture on the right side along with awards and unlocks. The left side fives chip count, date of death and such as well as quicklinks.

It is a good way for the PMs to tell us who is "in-game" and who is just a poser. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:02 pm
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yanka
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 		Re: [SPEC] - The gun, the characters, the whole overall stor
KermieD wrote:
Abraxas wrote:
rose wrote:
Maurice - the last person to kill someone with it[..]

Is that spec or fact? Because I can't remember having read it somewhere. If it's definitely fact, I'd like to know. Thank you. Smile


It's fact, as far as Lucky can be trusted. Can't tell you where I saw it, but it's a quote from the game.



Could somebody please give a hard link to wherever it is that Lucky says that Maurice was the last person to kill with it? Because I just went through both chats with Lucky, and the only thing I can find Lucky saying is that he got it "Just after it killed a man" (ref).
He also says that both the shooter and the dead man are "worth knowing, in their different ways", but that is not proof that Maurice was the shooter.

Lucky also says that he got the gun "back in [his] army days", so that makes it a little difficult for Maurice to have executed that guy in Paraguay with this gun all the way in 1969. I mean, it's possible, but that means that they swapped the gun after the war at least twice, which would be... just a little strange.

As for the spec that the gun is important because of whoever it killed - I think it's valuable spec, but there are also other possibilities:
- It's valuable because of who it belonged to (like, um, I don't know... Himmler)
- It physically has something in/on it. Maybe there is a map, or a huge diamond, or a document with some major historical revelation, or... I don't know... a tiny little piece of alien technology inside of it Very Happy Or, maybe, the gun has something important but not immediately obvious inscribed on it - like a password to something. Or maybe its serial numbers are a lock combination to some safe. Etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:22 pm
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SuperJerms
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 		Kerry still seems to be a wildcard. I've just been assuming he's a badguy, but that bit of humanity they gave him by talking with Clay made me notice that he could actually end up being a hero. He's nowhere near hero status right now, but you never know. After all, just because we're following Lucy doesn't mean she has to end up as the good guy.

And the way that Kerry hesitated when he took out Vic, and then actually delivers the key to Corazon, maybe he's not such a bad guy after all. Or maybe he's just looking for more people to kill. At any rate, he hardly seems to be the well connected enough to be acting on his own volition. definitely more of a hired gun, ex-mil (did anyone else find it odd that Maurice called him a soldier?), and maybe struggling with what he does for a living. Ask yourself, why did Kerry go talk to Clay? It was right after wacking Vic. Did the grinch's heart grow seven sizes that day?

Now, if he would just mutter, "I AM THE NIGHT" before his next killing...

Another interesting thing about the game sofar is the background knowledge given about so many characters. Aside from what's already been mentioned, we know quite a bit about the other, minor players. Aside from Richard Brunswick and Trey Muncie, there seems to be a lot of character development in place or on the way. Good writing.


Seems to me that the gun is important because of its history...maybe not who specifically has been killed, but who owned it in the past. It would be the most logical tie to the GUN game, after all. Seems like a drop in the bucket to say that LCP is the continuing story of events surrounding Colton White's Navy Colt.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:32 pm
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rose
...and then Magic happens


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Quote:
Could somebody please give a hard link to wherever it is that Lucky says that Maurice was the last person to kill with it?


Go to the trail archive for week one and mouseover the last tombstone on the trail- bottom right.

Lucky says something like " Phaedra asked me about it.... I said his name was Maurice Pikar. He was an old Army buddy of mine. He was the last person to kill a man with the Gun."

the trail for week one You have to click on it at the bottom of the page.

-----
About the Gun.

What makes a gun valuable? Why would someone want a gun so badly they would kill for it? One or more of these.

1. Workmanship - craft- etc. - Seems not to be the case here.

2. Owner has fame independent from gun- makes gun famous by association somehow, even if not used.

3. Owner has fame (in part) from using gun - like a historic figure from the West. Most western Sheriff's are famous for being in gun battles of some kind.

4. Owner isn't famous but gun was used to kill a famous person. Or if not a famous person, a person that matters greatly to the people trying to get the gun.

5. Hidden stuff- Maybe. That would be a new one. Smile

This is fun. Cant wait to see what happens.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:38 pm
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j5
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 		6. Don't discount some form of mysticism tied to the gun. We are playing poker with dead folks after all.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:00 pm
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